1.5M ratings
277k ratings

See, that’s what the app is perfect for.

Sounds perfect Wahhhh, I don’t wanna
xhxhxhx
xhxhxhx

I would appreciate it if some AI enthusiast would get mad at me

right now I’m objecting to a diffuse and incoherent set of fears about the future, but someone out there’s gotta have a theory of what mass technological unemployment actually looks like and a modestly granular account of the mechanisms by which artificial intelligence takes us there

I don’t have that model or that account, but y’all really seem to believe that the machines are right around the corner, so it’d be nice if someone laid it out somewhere

I wrote a lengthy harangue to @peopleneedaplacetogo about a week back, which appears here lightly edited:

If I were a smarter or better-informed person, would I feel differently about the intelligence explosion thesis? What do its better-informed advocates know that I don’t? What intuitions do they have that I lack? 

I guess you’d have to know what I believe before you could tell me why I’m wrong, but as a person who’s much closer to the technology than I am, what are the sources of the rationalist belief in artificial intelligence more generally?

Because, from the outside, with the little understanding of the technology that I have, it seems like intelligence is harder and progress more limited than the boosters are telling me. 

From the outside, throwing more processing power at the problem doesn’t seem to address the lack of sound concepts underpinning general machine intelligence, rather than specific intelligence.

The ‘machine learning’ we have, where we train algorithms on large data sets to sort the data and identify the patterns is impressive, sure, but the strength and limitations of ML suggest that we need more and more innovative conceptualizations and operationalizations of the problems we want the machines to address before we can apply machine power to any effect.

I apologize for my technological illiteracy; I’m sure I’m missing something crucial. I guess I just don’t have a good sense of what the conceptual paradigm for general intelligence would look like – “ML applied to the conceptualization of problems in the world”?

To which he replied:

I don’t have any specific knowledge of the topic either. I think a big intuition is just “don’t make strong predictions about what AI can or can’t do”.

What am I missing?

mitigatedchaos

Neural networks and dedicated hardware for them.  Have you seen their image generation capabilities lately?  It’s like we’re creating slices of animal brains.

Now, it’s easy to object that this does not create an intelligence explosion, and fortunately it probably won’t.  

The issue is that if you can create a neural net for walking, a neural net for object recognition, and a neural net for an industrial task, well… you put them together and you get something like an industrial task animal.

Most jobs don’t use anywhere near the whole human capability.  What’s necessary for us as creatures (and what shaped us) isn’t necessarily what’s most effective economically.  That is, we have more capabilities than artificial task animals, but are they profitable enough in such an economy to feed us?  Is a model where former truck drivers all become Patreon-sponsored bloggers at all viable?  And this will hit every sector basically at once.

There are limits to consumption based on available time/attention during a day.  But food requirements aren’t really negotiable.

But I’m not an economist.

the invisible fist robot jobpocalypse
gravemom
gravemom:
“ mitigatedchaos:
“ ranma-official:
“ ranma-official:
“i’m sorry for saying these words but if i had to think them you have to read them and also suffer
”
We need to queer the social justice/gamer binary.
”
“There are two genders,” the...
ranma-official

i’m sorry for saying these words but if i had to think them you have to read them and also suffer

ranma-official

We need to queer the social justice/gamer binary.

mitigatedchaos

“There are two genders,” the website read.

gravemom

can you two fucking idiots get off my post

mitigatedchaos

It’s too late, my dear blogger, your post is already dead, and we have killed it, like the cursed rascals we are.

Nothing can bring it back now, not even the necromantic arts.

Cast yourself out into the night and wail in despair, for your child post is gone!

shtpost double shtpost
ranma-official
lesbianstarbutterfly:
“please. please i am fucking begging you. just leave the house. go outside. see the world. look at nature. eat some grass. i dont care just. please. for gods sake. get off of tumblr.
”
Okay, but fandom historians are so fucking...
lesbianstarbutterfly

please. please i am fucking begging you. just leave the house. go outside. see the world. look at nature. eat some grass. i dont care just. please. for gods sake. get off of tumblr.

mitigatedchaos

Okay, but fandom historians are so fucking cyberpunk.

I can imagine it now,

Juniper Twelve,
A mixed race woman living in the Bronx,
Patreon-supported fandom historian and blogger-journalist,
her side-shaved aqua-streaked hair coming down to the back of her shoulders
against her black jacket.

She witnesses the murder of a Chinese man who was stealing data from a prestigious lawfirm,
and is pulled into a web of intrigue, deceit, and violence…

Source: lesbianstarbutterfly mitigated fiction mitigated future
mitigatedchaos
mitigatedchaos

Just want to point out here that the ethnic majorities of most territories would not like becoming ethnic minorities in those territories.  This isn’t some weird phenomenon limited to only Trump voters.

Those who control the culture control the laws, after all.  Also the availability (and thus ease of access) of cultural communal goods.

mitigatedchaos

Now some of you reading this are probably thinking this doesn’t apply to you, because you love diversity.

If you are one of those people, I want you to imagine the area you live in going from 5% redneck to 60% redneck over 10 years.

Most stores cater to redneck wants/needs. A statue of confederate general Robert E. Lee has been built in the public square. Serving alcohol has been made illegal on Sundays, and the churches are all redneck churches. Most bars play only country music.

The rednecks have not threatened anybody. But as the dominant local source of money, the businesses shift to accomodate - and businesses of your favored culture(s) close as they fall below the necessary density of customers.

You might believe that this is a necessary sacrifice for freedom of movement and commerce, but that doesn’t mean you’ll enjoy it.

politics

Just want to point out here that the ethnic majorities of most territories would not like becoming ethnic minorities in those territories.  This isn’t some weird phenomenon limited to only Trump voters.

Those who control the culture control the laws, after all.  Also the availability (and thus ease of access) of cultural communal goods.

politics
argumate

Anonymous asked:

Worth noting regarding Trump border wall that there is already a fence pretty much everywhere fence would be useful. I suspect Trump will scale back what was promised from the best wall you've ever seen to fence and natural barriers. Then he can declare victory without doing anything since apparently people who don't live near the border don't realize there is already a ton of fencing.

argumate answered:

luckily policy success or failure has no relation to politics anyway

mitigatedchaos

This will sound weird, but a lot of Trumpers don’t actually care about the wall, per se.

The Trump administration is looking to reduce and change legal immigration, in some ways making it more like it has been previously or like other countries.  (Immigration levels have not always been this high in America.)  

This makes a lot of sense from a “keep Republicans able to get elected over the next five decades” perspective, as, as we all know, Republican outreach to other minority races has mostly flopped.  Also, views change the more generations that immigrants are in the country.  (I talk about them flipping the Asians, but it’s a bit harder than flipping the Irish since there is a greater visual difference with whites, and so there are limits to how far racism will dissolve.)

The Democrats were celebrating an inevitable demographic tide that would deliver them permanent electoral majority.  However, that tide is not actually inevitable.  On some level, Trumpers can probably sense that the plan is to replace or outnumber them, but America does have immigration as part of its national mythos so this is not as well-supported.

The Wall is, to a degree, just a hammy metaphor for actually enforcing immigration law, and to a lesser degree, changing immigration rules.  If he changes immigration / enforces immigration law in other ways, his voters will be satisfied even without him actually building it.

politics racepol
collapsedsquid
zennistrad

Capitalism won’t work because of human nature. Why would you trust humans with a system that rewards their natural greed?

zennistrad

Capitalism sounds like a good idea on paper, but it just doesn’t work in practice.

zennistrad

Oh, so you support capitalism? Why don’t you go move to Thailand and do slave labor for Nestle?

zennistrad

Capitalism is a bad idea, the millions of people killed by capitalism can attest to that.

discoursedrome

as with a lot of these “parodying someone’s argument by applying it in a different context” sort of thing the funniest part is unintentional, in that these are all a) arguments frequently used against capitalism and b) actually fairly solid arguments against capitalism, even if they’re expressed too glibly to be intelligible to people who don’t already hold them.

collapsedsquid

I have seen too many claims in libertarian writing that it hasn’t been implemented because powerful people are too greedy with absolutely no irony.

mitigatedchaos

Well there does seem to be this idea that there’s all this corrupt government intervention

…combined with a strange lack of awareness that it can be more profitable locally to subvert the government even if it harms the market generally.  The idea seems to be that if you stripped away all the state power it wouldn’t come back by the exact same forces that put it there in the first place.

Source: zennistrad the invisible fist
nostalgebraist

neoliberalism-nightly asked:

I think the problem with that math post is that you are distorting the description to match with your ethical beliefs. And I'm pretty sure you are aware, and I may have missed it in the post, but a crucial aspect of the prediction market is to have poor predictors lose their voting power and vice versa. And this generalizes to markets when you use the words associated with scarcity, and you can generalize it to an evolutionary biology view as well.

nostalgebraist answered:

I am aware of this argument – for instance in the paper I linked there is this remark

If long-run market forces lead those with a history of accurate evaluation to become wealthier, then this wealth-weighted average may be a more accurate predictor than an unweighted average.

But I would not say this is a “crucial aspect” of prediction markets, from what I know.  There is a lot of interest, say, in the relatively few currently existing prediction markets, even though these are both rare and “causal” enough that one would not expect to see much of a wealth signal in them due to people going broke or winning big in prediction markets (as opposed to elsewhere).

If this were necessary for the function of prediction markets, or just a crucially important element of the mix, I would expect to see much more of a “we need to wait for the data” attitude among people studying these markets, rather than an intensive use of the data from the currently existing markets to evaluate the prediction market concept itself (as we see in that paper, and in many other places as well).

So we seem to have a real disagreement about how important this mechanism is (or is believed to be).  I’m not saying it’s seen as unimportant because of my values, I really just haven’t seen people treat it as that important.

I also don’t see how this generalizes to non-prediction markets, since there isn’t a notion analogous to “good prediction” for preferences, or if there were it would be something like “being exceedingly average in preferences” and I don’t think there’s a mechanism making people wealthy in proportion to how average they are.

mitigatedchaos

It’s probably more important if the market accumulation is broken up by domains, with some secondary importance across domains at a broader level for superforecasters participating.

It may not be that the megapredictor should have almost all the wealth, but rather we might want to allow a capped range or something depending on past performance.  Sounds like a good topic for a study!

someone give me a think tank or something the invisible fist
argumate
nostalgebraist

@argumate has been talking recently about hypothetical problems with ancap/libertarian-paradise-world, and it’s making me think about a very basic issue that I don’t see talked about enough.

Namely: all of the usual arguments about how markets are great (“aggregating information” and all that stuff) also say that wealth inequality makes markets worse at doing those things.  This is not a knock-down argument for having a state that redistributes wealth at gunpoint, but it is a reason to see wealth equality as a relevant concern even if you don’t have it as a terminal value.  Even if you don’t care about it, the market needs it to achieve the things you do care about.


I’ll generalize this in a moment, but first, let’s look at an especially clean example case: prediction markets.  Prediction markets are nice here because we don’t have to worry about thorny problems about aggregating utility to construct a “social welfare function.”  There isn’t a role for disagreements about values.  Everyone agrees about what we want out of a prediction market.  (Or rather, the disagreements that exist are technical rather than ethical.)

What we want out of prediction markets is a price that corresponds to the actual observed frequency of events.  Of course, this is not always possible – sometimes there is relevant information that no one in the market knows, so even a perfect information-aggregator (say, a rational being that knows everything that anyone in the market knows) would not get the right answer.

So at best, we can only ask for some sort of information-aggregating property, something like “prices reflect the average (i.e. mean) belief.”  This is desirable because we expect many sources of individual error to be uncorrelated, and these will wash out when we take the average.

But the prices in prediction markets reflect, at best, a wealth-weighted average of beliefs.  (For “wealth” here, read “quantity of money the individual is willing to invest in this market,” which is obviously constrained by wealth in a straightforward way.)  This is easy to see informally: if there are 1000 people who are only willing to buy $1 worth of shares each, and 1 person willing to buy $1000 worth of shares, the market mechanism will get an equally large signal from the one big spender as from the 1000 small spenders.

A formal version of this is derived in this paper: with logarithmic utility, prices equal the wealth-weighted mean of beliefs.  (If you’re worried about the log utility assumption, note that this is arguably the most favorable possible result for prediction markets, and much of that paper is dedicated to showing that other plausible utility functions do not yield very large deviations from it.)

Is it a problem that the results are wealth-weighted?  Well, not necessarily.  But it’s important to note that there are two different reasons it might be a problem.

First, assume (as in the paper) that we’re in the “many traders” limit, so there is a continuous distribution of beliefs, we have integrals rather than sums, etc.  In this case, what matters is the (Pearson) correlation of belief and wealth.  (If they are uncorrelated, the wealth-weighting will be invisible.)  This correlation will either help or hurt depending on whether the bigger spenders have more accurate beliefs in any given case; it seems hard to argue that they’ll have less accurate beliefs in general, which makes this concern easy to dismiss.

But second, suppose we are not in the “many traders” limit.  The worry with finitely many traders is a situation like the “1 vs. 1000″ example mentioned earlier, where the intuition that we are getting an average becomes misleading because the prices are so heavily affected by a small number of people.

Recall that the whole reason we’re interested in getting the average belief is that we expect uncorrelated errors to wash out if we average over a large number of people.  In situations like the “1 vs. 1000″ example, the inequality is making the effective population size smaller, i.e. making our law-of-large-numbers argument weaker.  From basic statistics, we’d expect the uncorrelated errors to get smaller by a factor of sqrt(N) when we average over N people.  That corresponds to the errors getting about 32 times smaller for N = 1001.  But in the 1 vs. 1000 case, half of the answer comes from the belief held by the single big spender, which (by hypothesis) carries random errors of the same size as everyone else’s, so the error is only cut down by (approximately) a factor of 2, not 32.


Now let’s extend this to more general markets.

This case is harder, because we don’t have an analogous law-of-large-numbers argument for the claim that the the price should reflect an unweighted population average.  To argue for that sort of claim in general, we must (horror of horrors!) introduce some sort of ethical assumption, say about no one being inherently more important than anyone else.

I was being facetious in the last sentence when I said “horror of horrors,” but there are real difficulties here.  The problem is not that some people might really be inherently more important than others, but that we are trying to do some sort of utility aggregation, and this is a famously thorny area.  So it may help to be more concrete.

The basic intuitive appeal of “invisible hand” type ideas is that the market will learn to provide what people want.  The phrase “what people want” has the same thorny issue just mentioned – how do we translate statements about what individual people want into a general statement about “what people want,” so that we can judge whether it is being provided (relatively well or poorly)?

The core of the idea is nonetheless pretty clear.  If a bunch of people want something, but not enough to buy it at the prevailing market price, someone will see the opportunity to make a profit by selling it at a lower price that these people will take.  After they take that opportunity, everyone else who produces the product will notice and lower their prices, and (after some equilibration) the market price will be low enough that people get the thing they want.  Likewise, if there is more demand for something than the low market price suggests, everyone will buy until there’s none of it left, at which point the suppliers will produce more because they can afford to do so by charging a higher price (assuming that supply curves slope upwards, which is not obvious and which I’ve heard is not always true IRL, but let’s grant it).  If you don’t allow these things to happen, you get Soviet bread lines and shortages of rent controlled housing.  Or so the argument goes.

OK, so here’s a brain-teaser for you: how much are homeless people willing to pay for housing?


Although there may be some exceptions (crust punks?), people do not generally become homeless because they simply value having a roof over their heads less than the average person does.  Many homeless people would be perfectly happy to pay the market price for housing if they could.  They just don’t have the money to.

In other words, the signal received by the market isn’t “preferences,” it’s “willingness to (actually) pay.”  It’s startling how rarely I see the distinction made between “willingness to pay” and “ability/capacity to pay”; in the academic literature it seems to be mainly made by economists interested in healthcare.  (See e.g. this paper, which presents the distinction as a novel modeling contribution, and has gotten only 2 citations since it was published in 2008, and this one, 3 citations since 2006.  If I am missing some large body of research here, let me know.)

Talking about this presents some technical difficulties, since there is no well-defined concept of “what someone would pay if they didn’t have to worry about their budget.”  For instance, what one is willing to pay in principle for vital necessities will scale up with budget in an unbounded fashion: I’m sure you could get Bill Gates to pay billions for a loaf of bread if the alternative was starvation, but this does not mean that a loaf of bread is “really” worth billions, and in fact does not mean much at all.  Even for non-essential goods, things can be pretty elastic, since many goods that are provably non-essential for human satisfaction can nonetheless feel effectively essential once one has satiated to them.  (You could extract a lot of my money by threatening to separate me from my internet connection, for instance.)

But it’s not as if spending patterns are unrelated to preferences.  If you give someone any fixed budget, they will buy some bundle of goods with it (for simplicity, you can view savings as just another good people may buy, so that everyone always “spends” their whole budget).  To determine someone’s preferences, give them a series of decreasing budgets, and watch which goods they are priced out of first and which they hold onto until the very end.  (If two people have different preferences, one person will buy more of some good than the other given a fixed budget of sufficient size, and as we decrease the budget, there will be some level at which one person is still buying some of it and the other isn’t.)

Thus, the market receives a signal about “what the people want” in the following form: it observes the extent to which the population has been priced out of buying it by their budget.

To clarify what this means, consider an example.  Suppose that everyone has the same budget.  Their spending patterns will vary, because preferences vary, but there will be trends.  For instance, there are some goods that almost everyone will be willing to pay you money for if they don’t have it (food, housing), and some goods that many people will happily do without.  Demand curves will be generated by people successively pricing themselves out (in) in response to price increases (decreases).  Few people will ever be willing to price themselves out of food or housing, so these goods will have nearly flat demand curves (low price elasticity of demand) with high intercepts, while goods that people will happily prices themselves out of (yachts, tchotchkes) will have steep demand curves (high price elasticity of demand) with low intercepts.  If some good has a given supply curve, it will be produced in a large quantity if it is of the former type (food, housing), and in a small quantity if it is of the latter type (yachts, tchotchkes) – interestingly, this is true no matter which way the supply curve slopes.

Thus, in this hypothetical world, a lot of resources go into producing food (or more relevantly, distributing food), and not as much into manufacturing yachts.  Because people – you, me, even Bill Gates – value food more than yachts, and the market mechanism responds to preferences.  The invisible hand works!  Chew on that, socialist planners!

But in our world, many resources are allocated to the production of bizarre luxury goods while billions go hungry.  Is this because “the people” want the former more than the latter?  Of course not.  No one wants the former more than the latter.  If you gave me the choice between food and my MacBook Air, I’d take the food, and so would you and Tim Cook and everyone else alive.

Why are resources misallocated in this way?  Because the starving have been priced out of food, while I have not been priced out of buying a MacBook Air, and the market only sees preferences in the form of the “what have people been priced out of” signal.

When people’s budgets are all the same (or similar), this signal results in production patterns that track people’s relative preferences about different goods.  When people’s budgets are wildly dissimilar, this does not occur.  The production patterns don’t even reflect rich people’s preferences, since they prefer essentials over luxuries just like everyone else.  (It satisfies rich people’s preferences, which is not the same thing as reflecting them.  Being rich means having the opportunity to buy things which have incredibly low, although still positive, marginal value to you.)

Does this mean we have to spread the wealth around at gunpoint?  Well, I don’t know.  We don’t need to do anything.  But the market cannot do its Adam Smithy magic if the wealth is very unevenly distributed.  Maybe you value not having a state more than you value the market doing its Adam Smithy magic!  But it is worth being clear that these values are in conflict.

argumate

you see this is why I don’t try and formalise my hunches: it’s so much work

mitigatedchaos

Ah, but dear owl-friend Argumate, if we rate those with zero money as having zero preferences, then all the math works out great!

Source: nostalgebraist the invisible fist shtpost