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See, that’s what the app is perfect for.

Sounds perfect Wahhhh, I don’t wanna
collapsedsquid
collapsedsquid

Minimum wage, basic income, and wage subsidies are the perfect example of why testing won’t work.  All of them will cause effects like migration if tested in a region that won’t apply if used universally.  All of them have inflation fears that won’t be seen if tested in a small population.  All of them have work disincentive effects that won’t be visible if tested in a small region.  And all of them can have effects that are swamped out by economic fluctuations that are unrelated and therefore can have difficult to interpret effects.

And wait, don’t we have to test  miti’s iron fist control of the central government before we test any of the rest?  I think we’ve gotten trapped in an infinite recursion here, we have to test the act of experimentation before we test experiments.

mitigatedchaos

To a degree, but incremental testing will have less of those effects, as would varied testing across various areas.  It should be possible to extract a decent amount of information just from testing lesser versions of all of them in multiple differing areas.  

After all, you have to test them in a world where migration exists, unless one of your tests is banning migration.  If your policy fails so badly that you have to build a wall to keep people from leaving the country, that is very important evidence in itself.  Likewise, if immigrants swarm into one of your districts to free ride.

For some items that do require national-scale implementation (aside from the rather dramatic alternative of splitting the country in two, which would have been quite interesting to see with Commies/Anarchists), the policymakers should be registering their bets before it goes into effect.  (Additional considerations modifying those bets can be worked in later, it will get a little complicated, but should be possible.)

Iron fist control of the national government was presented only as a framing device.

Source: ranma-official politics policy
argumate
argumate

In a way it’s heartening that crooked politicians can’t raid the treasury directly and have to engage in dodgy contract kickback arrangements via foreign banks; each extra link in the chain increases the vulnerability of the scheme and guarantees its eventual exposure.

mitigatedchaos

I’d like to add a few more links to that chain…

argumate

political cartoon of Leia strangling Jabba with lots of unnecessary labels like POLITICAL ELITE, FINANCIAL REGULATION, WIKILEAKS, PUBLIC OPINION, MILLENNIALS, TAX HAVENS, COST OF LIVING PRESSURE,

mitigatedchaos

look man, all I’m saying is I want a semi-secret anti-corruption unit to rope in and either get cooperation from or impersonate various businesses and offshore banks so that my politicians never know whether any kickback/bribe attempt is actually an elaborate sting operation,

and make my politicians pseudonymous so that would-be kickbackers can’t be sure who they’re dealing with is the real legislator they wanted to bribe or a member of the anti-corruption task force impersonating one as part of an elaborate sting operation, or replace them with think tanks which cost more money to bribe

I’m really a very reasonable person

politics policy national technocracy the iron hand
collapsedsquid
ranma-official

Socialist countries have a really bad track record of human rights abuses and a strange set of failings that are either specific to them or unusually prominent compared to the general zeitgeist, so you can draw decent conclusions like “don’t break systems a lot of people depend on, just cuz” and “freedom of press is actually really important” and “science shouldn’t be controlled by the state’s ideology ever”


instead people realize that Marx was wrong about something and the Soviet Union killed people and then go become tankies but for capitalism

isaacsapphire

I guess the real question is, “is it possible to avoid these known horrible bugs in Communism/socialism, or is it time to go look for something else and try to make that work?”

The vast majority of Communists I’ve encountered in person or online don’t seem to be trying to avoid the known problems. They either ignore/don’t know/pretend to not know about the historical issues, or they consider eg. genocide a feature rather than a bug.

discoursedrome

Yeah the communists I know mostly just roll their eyes at this sort of objection, and, like, okay, I get that they’re tired of fielding criticisms of that sort, but it’s not like they have really solid retorts that anyone who cares to know can easily look up. If their goal is just to wait for widespread revolutionary class consciousness to develop naturally and then assume it will all work out, I dunno guys.

Even on a maximally optimistic timeline we’re something like 30 years out from the kind of mass socialist movement that existed at the fin de siècle, so if they’re serious about this then proselytism is crucial, and they’re not going to get very far with that unless they can convince people that the widespread suspicions toward communism aren’t likely to apply to their movement. Unless they’re just trying to use the threat of communist revolution as a bludgeon to extract short-term incremental concessions from the ruling class, in which case more power to them I guess.

bambamramfan

Far leftists often get made fun of for obsessing about arcane details of ideology, having schisms over potential policy long before they ever conceivably might get actual power.

Far leftists also have to contend with a history of bad institutional and policy decisions leading to the death of millions and autocratic government.

I like to think the first is a result of the second.

collapsedsquid

I think that problem with that idea is that the schisming came before the gaining of power.  There’s a good case to make that the causality is (partially) reversed there.

mitigatedchaos

Agree.  Far Leftist/Communist arguments, from what I see of them, don’t appear to be about technocratic differences, but more about moral ones.

It would be interesting to see them argue like economists over specific detailed alternative societal models, and probably more beneficial since they might run more tests of them.

Political factions in general also appear to lack the idea of running competing tests in order to assess their effectiveness.  Sadly that might be an artifact of gaining power.

collapsedsquid

I mean, you can view the anarchist/leninist debate (which is what I was thinking of) as moral, but you can also see it argued in very technocratic terms.  Anarchists argued a Leninist state would become oppressive.  Leninists argued a anarchist non-state would be either impossible, or end up a state in all but name.

And the whole concept of “testing“ isn’t really possible.  What works for small groups doesn’t for large groups, what applies to a part doesn’t apply to the whole.  Meaningfully testing these thing is hard, hell, look at the replicability crisis in the social sciences, and those are much easier problems.

mitigatedchaos

For a total revamp, sure. If you have iron fist control of the central government, though, you can do some pretty extreme tests, far more daring and dangerous than I would do, with the organization of the provincial governments, however. There are ways out of this testability mess, but they don’t really appeal to the political mind IME since political justification is often from perceived moral binding.

Imagine, for a moment, that the Central Director of the North American Union wants to test the results of various new minimum wage, basic income, and wage subsidies programs, and the National Technocrats have seized power and excluded all others from the legislature. She could have the legislative factions lay out multiple plans that are estimated to have a reasonable chance of success, then have the leadership of various jurisdictions rank them according to which they would like most for their district, and use that to guide district selection with a reasonable variation to choose from. A set date could then be set for evaluation before the next round, probably 3-5 years.

Even the United States in its current form provides some evidence from differing experiments, but our politicals mostly just throw it out amd go with whatever policy they already wanted.

Source: ranma-official politics
collapsedsquid
ranma-official

Socialist countries have a really bad track record of human rights abuses and a strange set of failings that are either specific to them or unusually prominent compared to the general zeitgeist, so you can draw decent conclusions like “don’t break systems a lot of people depend on, just cuz” and “freedom of press is actually really important” and “science shouldn’t be controlled by the state’s ideology ever”


instead people realize that Marx was wrong about something and the Soviet Union killed people and then go become tankies but for capitalism

isaacsapphire

I guess the real question is, “is it possible to avoid these known horrible bugs in Communism/socialism, or is it time to go look for something else and try to make that work?”

The vast majority of Communists I’ve encountered in person or online don’t seem to be trying to avoid the known problems. They either ignore/don’t know/pretend to not know about the historical issues, or they consider eg. genocide a feature rather than a bug.

discoursedrome

Yeah the communists I know mostly just roll their eyes at this sort of objection, and, like, okay, I get that they’re tired of fielding criticisms of that sort, but it’s not like they have really solid retorts that anyone who cares to know can easily look up. If their goal is just to wait for widespread revolutionary class consciousness to develop naturally and then assume it will all work out, I dunno guys.

Even on a maximally optimistic timeline we’re something like 30 years out from the kind of mass socialist movement that existed at the fin de siècle, so if they’re serious about this then proselytism is crucial, and they’re not going to get very far with that unless they can convince people that the widespread suspicions toward communism aren’t likely to apply to their movement. Unless they’re just trying to use the threat of communist revolution as a bludgeon to extract short-term incremental concessions from the ruling class, in which case more power to them I guess.

bambamramfan

Far leftists often get made fun of for obsessing about arcane details of ideology, having schisms over potential policy long before they ever conceivably might get actual power.

Far leftists also have to contend with a history of bad institutional and policy decisions leading to the death of millions and autocratic government.

I like to think the first is a result of the second.

collapsedsquid

I think that problem with that idea is that the schisming came before the gaining of power.  There’s a good case to make that the causality is (partially) reversed there.

mitigatedchaos

Agree.  Far Leftist/Communist arguments, from what I see of them, don’t appear to be about technocratic differences, but more about moral ones.

It would be interesting to see them argue like economists over specific detailed alternative societal models, and probably more beneficial since they might run more tests of them.

Political factions in general also appear to lack the idea of running competing tests in order to assess their effectiveness.  Sadly that might be an artifact of gaining power.

Source: ranma-official politics
nuclearspaceheater
bloodandhedonism:
“ concentrated-sunshine:
“ reperspectivity:
“ alaija:
“ reperspectivity:
“ celticpyro:
“ equestrianrepublican:
“ pietycrane:
“ the stupid burns pls help
”
Where to begin.
>sweden
>calling something racist against a...
pietycrane

the stupid burns pls help

equestrianrepublican

Where to begin.

>sweden

>calling something racist against a religion

>progressive nation picks sides in progressive battle

celticpyro

You could have stoped this.

reperspectivity

Can I have a source on this?

alaija

Oh, it really happened! @reperspectivity

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/07/sweden-farright-plans-gay-pride-muslim-area-lgbt-150728180328656.html

To be fair it was organised by a “right wing” group (by Swedish standards) to make that very point. But they did make their point…

“ They believe the agenda behind this parade organised by the far-right is to try to provoke Muslims in the predominantly immigrant areas. “

You believe that an LGBT parade through such areas would “provoke” people, yet the ones organising the parade are the racists?

And if I remember my gay history properly, being provocative was the fucking point!

reperspectivity

So basically, right-wingers propose using the same method initially use to create acceptance where previously there was none, but since it’s right-wingers, it’s now racist?

concentrated-sunshine

P. much

bloodandhedonism

this is basically what david hines said would happen re: right-wingers adopting left-wing tactics to delegitimize them, if in an obvious early-stage super-mild version of it

uh-oh 

mitigatedchaos

Fuckin’ L, the liberals told us this wouldn’t happen.

There is a choice to be made here. People want to pretend it isn’t necessary and all groups are compatible, but that’s wishful thinking. One of these things is an ideology, and a political one at that, and the other is an essentially harmless biologically-rooted phenomenon which doesn’t carry much in the way of extra information.

politics
argumate
argumate

If I still don’t have your attention, consider this: county by county, where life expectancy is dropping survivors are voting for Trump.

very relevant

gattsuru

(cw: suicide, drug overdose, Trump, comparisons of things that aren’t like the AIDS crisis to the AIDS crisis.)

This is interesting, but it shies away from a lot of overt revelations.

The author had to lump together various types of death to make the comparison to the AIDS crisis work, but it kinda occludes a serious issue.  There is a surprising increase in white (and Native American/Alaskan) suicide rates, but it’s not the cause of that terrifying map atop this post.  A 40% increase in suicide rates makes up 6.4 deaths per 100,000 people, but at most that’d drop the red areas to a mere yellow.  Suicide’s always been a rural issue, and we’ve had jumps in recessions before.  By contrast, the increase in drug-related overdoses looks like this.  Some of the more vulnerable populations had 30 death per 100,000 capita increases in drug and alcohol-related deaths (Case-Deaton 2016).

The other is the definition of “unnecessariat”.  Scott Alexander tries to discuss this in terms of the (low) unemployment rate, but between SSDI and the nature of the term, that metric’s essential been consumed by Goodhart’s law.  Labour force participation is the central focus, and it’s down significantly in these states.  West Virginia notably under 50% of adults, and worse in some counties!  But that’s been a long, slow decline for quite some time, and indeed if you look both the total employment count and total population hasn’t changed much since the 1990s.  They’re not completely jobless – but they’re increasingly fractured between those with short-term jobs and those on the disability rolls who can’t take any above-the-table work without losing money in toto.  There’s not so clear a delimination between the unnecessariat and precariat, or even the secretariat, as implied here.

This also leads to the awkward issue of mobility.  Population growth for West Virginia has been incredibly low for over two decades, sometimes even dipping negative.  That’s not because West Virginians have lost appetite for underprotected hetero sex, but because those who can, leave for greener pastures.  You get a sort of evaporative cooling, with the remaining population too old or ill to work, with too much capital sunk into houses you couldn’t even get fire insurance on, or tied to those who do.  Divorce plays a heavy role, not just because of broken relationships, but also from lawyer and court fees.  

((It’s worth pointing out, here, that there’s not a single Great White Ghetto, but multiple, just as Baltimore’s problems are different from Detroit’s are different from Oakland’s.  The Rust Belt’s issues have overlap with the Appalachia, and the Appalachia’s with the Plains, but they’ve significant differences that adding all the groups together obscure.  Indeed, not all of the Great White Ghetto is even white!  The suicide and drug epidemic has struck Native Americans first, and some enclaves through the southern Appalacians are majority-black. Not all of these matters with generalize.))

It’s also worth pointing out the sense of decay that’s universal throughout these areas, like something out of a post-apocalyptic film.  That’s most obvious in Detroit, of course, where one driving up i-75 gets a scenic view of a crumbling concrete parking garage, of the sort most Coastals would normally only see when visiting other countries after cautions not to drink the water.  But between the amateur eschatology on signboards and Grandpa’s Cheese Barn there’s countless barns falling apart, and an even greater number of houses with ill-patched roofs or long-past-expiration siding.  Where things are brand new, it’s often because no one owns them – tractors either date back to the seventies or are controlled by a far-off computer, motels are either rusted and closed or ‘safe’ franchises.  Skyscrapers in the midwest won’t even publish their capacity (never high to start with), and remain maintained as much by embarrassment as by popular support.

There’s folk who try to undo this – anyone who’s done their taxes through TurboTax has, unknowingly, contributed to an attempt to revive downtown Detroit – but it just ends up being fancy storefront with no actually homes or businesses inside. Literally: there is a class of construction made to look used without occupants.

((This decay combined with deep-but-few-roots end up with bad economic structural differences: you see alcohol, pepsi, firearms, and trucks used as mediums of exchange and stores of value pretty heavily, and then exchanged for labour or cash during hard times.  The lure of the tipped employee comes, at least in part, from having their pay today rather than in a week and a half.  But increasing commodity value and decreasing land value and manpower value and even utility of extra manpower makes for a weird barter-environment version of deflation.))

The political aspect is… more complex.  There’s a whole lot more to the unnecessariat’s dislike of Sanders than just that he can’t win the primary – a good many of them see promises of free or low-cost as just more ineffective job training, hear ‘clean energy’ as another nail in the coal industry coffin and another business in California, and think of infrastructure investment as another highway overpass on the other side of the state.  No one’s going to turn road trips into an American past-time again – the closest we’ve seen are folk that want to replace aircraft with trains – and certainly not enough to make the motel industry viable again.

That article also misses the sense of randomness, of assault under the pressure of unpredictable and maybe unpredictable outsiders.  The speeding ticket is definitely part of it – you’ve not seen midwest decay til you see someone break down over a fifty dollar speeding ticket – but it’s really just the shadow.  West Virginia’s coal mines didn’t lose production because they tapped out, but because of an intentional domestic coal phaseout and increasing political protest preventing even international shipment.  For the midwest plains, the Bundy group started because a single wildlife determination put his business under, and even if most people don’t take it as far as he did, most know or know of someone who’s had to fight outsiders over similar stupid problems.  ((And linking to the SLPC as a summary of LaVoy Fininicum is… tasteless, especially given the current investigation in FBI misbehavior.))  It doesn’t help that ‘outsider’ can be someone who married and moved into the county a decade ago, but if you want to understand the distrust, you have to examine that.

argumate

interesting, and sad.

politics

Of course, having seen a bit of Tenchi again recently, it strikes me just how much each of the characters is SPACE [feudal fantasy type].

  • Aeka - SPACE Princess
  • Ryoko - SPACE Demon
  • Washu - SPACE Wizard
  • Tenchi - SPACE Chosen One Farmer Boy
  • Ryo-Ohki - SPACE fuzzy creature
  • Tenchi’s Ancestors - SPACE Ancestors

Mihoshi is of course a Space Constable and so on. Overall it’s still a chosen one farm boy warrior hero fantasy, but further emphasized by making the entire planet the backwater rural area.

And I can’t say I really object. It injects life into the setting and characters in a way that works for the kind of genre it is, and what is creativity but the finding new links between existing concepts?

anime tenchi muyo mitigated fiction
brazenautomaton
brazenautomaton:
“ mitigatedchaos:
“ nikoniko808:
“ remember watching tenchi muyo on toonami lol
“get rewards on my patreon!
” ”
Just so you guys know, Ryoko is superior to Aeka in every way, and deserves to have the prototype bland harem protagonist...
nikoniko808

remember watching tenchi muyo on toonami lol

get rewards on my patreon!

mitigatedchaos

Just so you guys know, Ryoko is superior to Aeka in every way, and deserves to have the prototype bland harem protagonist all to herself, and I’ll fight anyone who says otherwise.

brazenautomaton

no, ayeka deserves to have the bland harem protagonist all to herself

and ryoko deserves to have mihoshi, kiyone, washu, and let’s throw in ukyo kuonji, all to herself as her harem

and they go on space adventures

mitigatedchaos

Oi, just ‘cuz yer’ a space princess doesn’t mean you get to practice cryosleep incest. It’s of vital importance that the nobility of Jurai establish firm moral behavior so as to be an example to inspire the common people. She will marry a genetically fit man to whom she has no blood relation going back at least twenty generations if I have any say in the matter.

As for the prototype bland harem protagonist, not only is he a powerful, plot-armored MacGuffin (valuable by itself), but as the super-protoype for the other K-series Harem Protagonists, control over his narrative would allow Ryoko to indirectly control all the other harem anime protagonists in an amount according to how little personality they have, allowing her to enter other series entirely and rule them as sovereign and/or drunkard. I don’t see how you could have an objection to this.

Mihoshi would of course ruin this plan for interdimensional conquest, and thus must be kept far away from it.

Source: nikoniko808 anime shtpost