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slartibartfastibast

Atomic Prejudice

soundlogic2236

Not about social justice! This post is about nuclear power, safety, and risk analysis.

Coal is estimated to kill 161 people per TWh (Terawatt hour). Electricity costs about 12 cents per KWh (Kilowatt hour). That means approximately every $750,000 spent on electricity through coal also costs a human life. Given that the FDA puts the value of a human life at about 8 million, that is somewhat problematic-even very generously assuming that all of that $750,000 goes to compensating for the death toll (and none to, for example, digging up coal or developing the power plants), that is $750,000 out of $8,000,000-leaving about 90% unpaid. That means more than 90% of coal power’s costs is being stolen in the form of people’s deaths to a first approximation. Details of those who are vulnerable probably decrease it some, but it is unlikely to go below 50%.

Stop and think about that for a moment. I’m pretty sure that goes well past what massive violent crime syndicates do.

What is their secret? Well, it is hard to impossible to point to any specific death and say ‘this death was caused by coal’ outside of things like mining accidents, and mining accidents are hard to distinguish from each other-‘mining accident mining coal’ and ‘mining accident mining copper’-do you know of a difference?

Nuclear power is estimated to kill 0.04 people per TWh-less than rooftop solar (0.44), European hydro (0.10, which is lower than world hydro at 1.4), or wind (0.10). Nuclear power is also more portable-while the middle of the desert is great for solar power, storing and transporting the power from one location to another is extremely difficult. Transporting nuclear fuel, while still somewhat difficult and has its risks, is of negligible difficulty in comparison.

One might wonder how it is that nuclear power can achieve such a low death toll, being approximately a tenth of even rooftop solar. It probably has something to do with this:

People do occasionally fall off roofs, and you have to setup quite a lot of solar panels before you get close to the power of uranium.

So why is nuclear viewed with such suspicion? Well, for one thing it got off to a rough start-‘Atomic bomb’ and ‘Nuclear War’ are phrases that easily come to mind, while no similar phrases come to mind for ‘coal’. Nuclear power accidents are local (in both time and space)-they happen in very specific locations and times, which makes it far easier to associate damages with the reactor itself, where as coal power plants disperse their harm over time and space. While evacuation has proven effective for keeping the cancer rate increases even in the case of disasters at less than 1%, 12% of people generally die of cancer regardless, and associations are likely to spring to mind whenever someone in that 12% dies after being near a nuclear accident.

Early mysteriousness (green glow!) of radiation means that a lot of people are at least somewhat uncertain of what precisely radiation does-while people are often ignorant of the exact effects of pollution from coal-for example the fact that you actually get MORE radiation exposure from living near a coal power plant than a nuclear power plant, they are far less likely to experience uncertainty unless directly asked. Uncertainty breeds fear as well.

None of these however form an actual argument against nuclear power-an easier time identifying deaths? Why should we care about that, even moreso as a downside. Showing up as a green glow in cartoons? Why would that make nuclear power unwise?

There are some risks associated with malfunctions and transport of nuclear material, but the numbers simply do no bare out-the strongest objection to nuclear power is as far as I can tell simple prejudice.

slartibartfastibast

The problem is that normal people are sick of beep-boop bullshitters damaging their kids by ignoring continuum dynamics (e.g. the “carcinogenic threshold”):

https://www.osti.gov/scitech/biblio/20850102

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.4161/cc.7.9.5806

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16503339

http://pnas.org/content/99/10/6877.long

fuelbydreams

It is my understanding that in normal operation Coal power plants release much  more radiation into the environment than Nuclear power plants. 

Nuclear power plants  face some bad economics.  They cost a lot to run, even after built. Many nuclear plants in the US that are shutting down in the next 5-10 years are because the economics of continuing to have a permit to run then doesn’t work. Nuclear power plants are also very costly from a regulatory perspective to build.  

Natural gas has provided about half of the progress in carbon reduction for power production in the US. Solar and Wind continue to get cheaper and have popular political support with both conservative and liberal politics. 

slartibartfastibast

The doses from nuclear plants are mostly sporadic. It’s not a fallacy to argue that fossil fuels are less removed from the states of matter that we’re already adapted to.

People’s suspicions also factor into the economics of running a plant. We don’t know if the tech to get rid of all that fuel is gonna be available soon. At the moment, most plants wouldn’t fail safely if society collapsed (even just for a few years). So they’re a gun to the temple of every prepper-personality.

mitigatedchaos

The tech to reduce the problem from thousands of years of storage to a few centuries of storage sort-of exists already in the form of breeder reactors.

But since we aren’t accounting for carbon costs, or that fossil fuels will run out, or that renewables don’t actually provide power at the times of market demand and thus LCOE is inaccurate, good luck getting past the coordination issues short of another oil crisis.

At least the good news is that there’s enough uranium in seawater to run industrial civilization for thousands of years if it comes to that.

Source: soundlogic2236 nuclear power
thathopeyetlives

Anonymous asked:

I really really really want to see mission work on North Sentinel Island in my lifetime. Maybe carried out via spying on them long enough with drones disguised as insects to learn their language, and then using further very sturdy drones to communicate with them.

thathopeyetlives answered:

Maybe! Any kind of dealings with the Sentinelese will have to be pretty cautious if we want them to be able to maintain their autonomy at all, though. 

mitigatedchaos

If that’s the idea, we’re already doomed.

Think of it as making a backup of your work.  You don’t know with certainty that you will need it.  You don’t know with certainty what changes will occur between your backup and later on when or if you decide to revisit it.

But if you do need it, you will be very glad you had it.

Take, for example, the fact that we are gene-modifying wheat.  It strikes me that we may not need a civilization-destroying catastrophe to benefit from having some unmodified-relative-to-1950 wheat set away in storage, if only to compare to down the line to see exactly what we changed, or for anthropological reasons.

thathopeyetlives

Anonymous asked:

I really really really want to see mission work on North Sentinel Island in my lifetime. Maybe carried out via spying on them long enough with drones disguised as insects to learn their language, and then using further very sturdy drones to communicate with them.

thathopeyetlives answered:

Maybe! Any kind of dealings with the Sentinelese will have to be pretty cautious if we want them to be able to maintain their autonomy at all, though. 

mitigatedchaos

No.  There is some risk that we don’t fully know yet that is partially mitigated (a chaos, even) by leaving a few isolated groups of humans uncontacted and separate from modern civilization, a risk that probably doesn’t go away until the stage of interplanetary colonization.

A blockade should be established, if necessary, and those attempting to violate it arrested.

The only condition under which they should be contacted is if it is determined that they are otherwise doomed to die out as a tribe.

Those fleeing the island on their own are another matter.

mitigated future mitigated chaos
bambamramfan
Jon Stewart, John Oliver…mostly enact the pure arrogance of the liberal intellectual elite: “Parodying Trump is at best a distraction from his real politics; at worst it converts the whole of politics into a gag. The process has nothing to do with the performers or the writers or their choices. Trump built his candidacy on performing as a comic heel—that has been his pop culture persona for decades. It is simply not possible to parody effectively a man who is a conscious self-parody, and who has become president of the United States on the basis of that performance.”
Zizek citing Stephen Marche
(via slavoj–zizek)
Source: slavoj--zizek politics trump
mugasofer
argumate

succubus, a feminine demon that seduces you in your sleep.

incubus, a masculine demon that seduces you in your sleep,

cuckubus, a demon that seduces your partner while you sleep.

(sorry, blame @nothingismoral)

urpriest

arquebus, a demon that shoots you while you sleep.

dagny-hashtaggart

Cannibus, a demon that gets you really high while you sleep. 666 blaze it!

another-normal-anomaly

Omnibus, a demon that does all the above and more.

mhd-hbd

Autobus, a form of public transportation.

nicdevera

Catbus, a Ghibli form of transportation

argumate

Superbus, the legendary seventh and final king of Rome, reigning from 535 BC until the popular uprising in 509 that led to the establishment of the Roman Republic. He is commonly known as Tarquin the Proud, from his cognomen Superbus (Latin for “proud, arrogant, lofty”).

what.

mugasofer

Syllabus, a demon that promises you all the knowledge of the world but ends up trapping you in a system of standardized tests.

mitigatedchaos

Omegabus, one of a class of all-knowing demons that uses acausal blackmail to extract services and resources.

Altabus, one of a class of low-status wizards known for their fringe politics, responsible for the creation of the Lesser Cuckubus and unleashing it upon the Aethernet.

Source: argumate sex cw shtpost
argumate
earnest-peer

@evolution-is-just-a-theorem about the strikes. Doesn’t sound exactly positive, but that narrative would have a much lower probability of nuclear war.

The general lesson here is of course that, whenever Trump distracts you with some new outrageous shit, you check what was on the news just beforehand.

argumate

“military strikes just an expensive political stunt” is the default position, and definitely more reassuring than actual military action, at least to people who weren’t hit by the missiles in question.

earnest-peer

I get that, but there are multiple pieces of evidence given towards the default position, so I don’t think being the default position hurts it that much here. Also they did minimize the people hit, so…

argumate

“putin being able to respond sanely to provocation is the only reason we’re not in WWIII right now,” certainly sounds a little less reasonable when Trump asked for his permission before launching the strike.

mitigatedchaos

Left now alternates between thinking the Drunken Master is a Master vs just thinking he’s Really Really Drunk. Anyhow, a big Russian oil deal could reduce American reliance on the middle east, lowering the likelihood of getting into dumb wars there. Chew on that, haha.

Source: earnest-peer politics trump
the-grey-tribe
earlgraytay

I understand that having your field constantly mocked for being arcane and boring is unpleasant, but can you please not do the same to other people? For the love of every fucking god ever to walk this blighted earth, you’d think it’d be obvious that the weirdoes need to stick together. 

but nooooooo, clearly anyone who can Do Maths is superior and anyone who says “art is very important to most people” in slightly imprecise terms is Wrong. 

Unless you want to live in a fucking stone cube with no decoration and eat soylent for every meal, art is fucking essential. 

fierceawakening

Also, that article was about art’s role in CHALLENGING AUTHORITARIAN REGIMES and why authoritarian regimes always crack down on it. I get why the quote might hit a nerve with someone, but the broad point about how when authoritarianism is increasing, that is EXACTLY THE WRONG TIME to decide art is frivolous or harass creators for not making exactly what you want, is not just a correct one but a vital one.

There was a great YouTube video I watched earlier about why political satire is vitally important, along similar lines. I wasn’t sure if I should bother to link it.

…I’ll be looking that up again now.

chavisory

The presumption that anyone who values the arts clearly can’t do math was incredible, as well.

Like, I can.  Not particularly high-level math, but when I was actually doing it in school on a regular basis, I could actually more than handle math.

My belief in the value of art and my decision to make a career and a life in it has nothing whatsoever to do with my ability or lack thereof to do math.

fierceawakening

I noticed that too.

Art vs Math is a false dichotomy.

leggystarscream

Also… A lot of mathematicians spend a lot of time thinking about the aesthetics and beauty of the math they’re doing! Math *itself* is arguably the art of logic.

fierceawakening

Yes!

My reaction to “I am Mathy, unlike you Art Weirdo” is “Dude, have you ever SEEN a fractal?”

leggystarscream

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_beauty

Huh, I’m surprised that I didn’t know this wiki article existed. But like, 300% on topic.

the-grey-tribe

OP clearly started with the “Art vs. Math“ meme. The nerd faction (bpd-anon, promethea, nuclearspacetheater, me) was pushing the “High Art vs. Low Art vs. Kitsch vs Gebrauchskunst” meme.

People who are “Arty” in the notes, as opposed to “Nerdy“, are pushing this math meme. People who think they are are good at math see no contradiction, which may or may not be ironic.

The other side of the argument is fascinating, because the disagree with you about what they are even arguing about.

@bpd-anon said:

There is nothing recent in art museums nearly as good as what’s being made on Deviantart tbh

That sentiment is not anti-art or pro-math. It’s anti state funding and anti bullshit signalling games.

Maybe the counterfactual you need to understand this would be: Imagine the budget of the NEA’ was fixed, and every year every citizen of your country could vote via approval voting for one big project being funded. For the last three years, the grant went to a joint movie grant proposal by Seth Rogen, Michael Bay and Tyler Perry. The produced movies can be streamed for free by citizens.

Would you vote for your favourite high art proposal, or would you campaign to abolish the NEA’? Would you expect Michael Bay to win again? Is it the will of the people? If you abolished this NEA’, would Michael Bay be out of a job?

Source: earlgraytay