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See, that’s what the app is perfect for.

Sounds perfect Wahhhh, I don’t wanna
remedialaction
mitigatedchaos

@remedialaction

Like how the birth of farm machines meant the excess former farmers were unemployed forever, huh?

A sector largely requiring large amounts of unskilled labor is replaced by a sector largely requiring large amounts of unskilled labor.  In what ways might the current situation be different from that?

Horses’ power and speed were their primary economic interest.  Once machines were able to do this better and cheaper, with horses limited to niche applications, what happened to the horses?  

Humans’ intelligence is unique in the economy, but machines are now becoming more and more intelligent and adaptable.  In one sector this might just displace workers, but what happens when it applies to all sectors simultaneously?  Why would you hire a human worker, who cannot work below a certain minimum due to resource requirements to survive, rather than just use a machine that does the same thing for less money?

Is there any law of economics that requires that someone’s maximum feasible production be enough for them to survive?  Remember to account for opportunity cost of the necessary resources in your answer, such as real estate being purchased by those with orders of magnitude higher productivity.

It seems there rather clearly isn’t such a law since economically non-viable people already exist.

This position of yours appears to stem from an ideological pre-commitment to Capitalism, and I say this as someone that argues against Communists.  The ability of Capitalism to outperform Stalin on human suffering is conditional, and those conditions have held for a long time, but that is slowly changing.

remedialaction

I take some exception to the very term ‘unskilled labor’ as a general term, because agricultural work is not 'unskilled’ and neither were the various manufacturing jobs that often replaced them. These are not skill sets that have cross over. So we start off with that error, but I’ll say right now I can already see you’re missing my point, but I’ll get to that.

The flaw here is comparing an animal who was used for an end (horses) and the animal that built the system (humans.) That is even putting aside the idea that somehow machines will become intelligent and adaptable enough to displace workers in the first place, a reality that is likely not nearly as close as we think. Indeed, there is a flaw that even if we did, the idea we’d be able to replicate the human way of thinking is itself improbable. And the idea that it would happen and suddenly penetrate every industry simultaneously is itself flawed.

Further, I think you’re also missing the point by your claim that this is based on an ideological pre-commitment to Capitalism, to which I’d argue, as opposed to what? The flaw here is capitalism, which is private ownership of 'capital’ (really, property, as the designation of capital is frankly arbitrary) and the exchange there of with other private individuals. At its core, it is an expression of individual rights. The only other option would be a disregard for individual rights, and implicitly authoritarianism of some form or another. I’m an individualist, I’m anti-authoritarian, therefor, I am capitalist, not the other way around

I also think you’re arguing something I don’t believe and never have. I would argue that folks may very well hire humans out of their desire to do so, as humans are not and never have been homo economicus, but that is largely an aside to the real point.

My real point is actually that whatever the next revolution is, the ability to predict its effects is likely beyond any living human in any real capacity, in the same way that predictions for the Industrial Revolution were themselves largely impossible until we passed into it and could adapt to the particulars of it. I largely think doomsaying can be set aside because it seems to disregard that humans will shape the system to suit humans.

And what, exactly, is the alternatives? No one seems to have proposed anything somehow forestall this supposed doom of robots taking our jerbs. The supposed 'fixes’ are little more than rehashes of old policies that didn’t work then and won’t work now, and/or are ethically compromised.

As an aside, I’d argue the vast majority of folks who fall under 'economical unviable’ do so for reasons beyond actual economic concerns, and more to due with government intervention, but that’s largely my anarchism, I suspect.

mitigatedchaos

I take some exception to the very term ‘unskilled labor’ as a general term, because agricultural work is not 'unskilled’ and neither were the various manufacturing jobs that often replaced them. These are not skill sets that have cross over. So we start off with that error, but I’ll say right now I can already see you’re missing my point, but I’ll get to that.

They’re both skillsets which don’t require as much training or IQ.  Putting someone to work on an assembly line is not something which requires a four year degree’s worth of education (though I’m sure you’ll argue that the training isn’t really required, regardless of whether it is) and an IQ over 110.

The flaw here is comparing an animal who was used for an end (horses) and the animal that built the system (humans.) 

In other words, the human beings will change the system away from purist Capitalism before it destroys them and replaces them with a more economically efficient form of matter.  Capitalism does use people for ends.  Employment is an unwanted side effect of production that so-called “job creators” do not actually want.

That is even putting aside the idea that somehow machines will become intelligent and adaptable enough to displace workers in the first place, a reality that is likely not nearly as close as we think. 

It doesn’t need to displace all workers, just those with an IQ below some amount, in order to cause problems with mass unemployment.  As for how close it is, well, factories in China are performing layoffs in favor of automation, warehouses are getting factor 5-6x reductions in staff, it’s hitting lawyers with tools for document search, and doctors, and so on.

You have to remember that even if jobs still exist, the number of applicants kicked out of other sectors can drive down the wages to unsustainable levels because the amount of most categories of services actually needed by the economy are limited.  (eg, if a typical plumber can fix X pipes per hour, and there are Y pipes needed per person normally without much more gain from Y+1 pipes, then the number of plumbers that it’s beneficial to have is limited.)

Indeed, there is a flaw that even if we did, the idea we’d be able to replicate the human way of thinking is itself improbable. 

“A computer will never defeat human masters at Go.  Surely that can’t happen, it’s far too intuitive of a game.”

And, computers don’t actually have to think like humans to displace human workers.  They often come at things in ways we would consider sideways.

And the idea that it would happen and suddenly penetrate every industry simultaneously is itself flawed.

By and large, computers have penetrated every industry over the last several decades.  Suggesting robots won’t penetrate almost every industry at once is almost proposing that capitalists will simply leave money on the table and that capitalism is not efficient.

Further, I think you’re also missing the point by your claim that this is based on an ideological pre-commitment to Capitalism, to which I’d argue, as opposed to what? The flaw here is capitalism, which is private ownership of 'capital’ (really, property, as the designation of capital is frankly arbitrary) and the exchange there of with other private individuals. At its core, it is an expression of individual rights. The only other option would be a disregard for individual rights, and implicitly authoritarianism of some form or another. I’m an individualist, I’m anti-authoritarian, therefor, I am capitalist, not the other way around 

If participation in the market is necessary for survival, then participation in the market is not truly voluntary.  It doesn’t matter that a specific agent isn’t holding the gun to mandate it - it is nonetheless mandatory.  Capitalism is just another form of hierarchy, and ideal Capitalism does not and cannot exist.  Of course, individual rights are purely an intermediate node, too, and always were.

Put simply, Capitalism is an amoral (not moral or immoral) resource production and distribution algorithm.  Its moral value derives purely from its consequences.  Treating it any other way is bound to cause disappointment.

I also think you’re arguing something I don’t believe and never have. I would argue that folks may very well hire humans out of their desire to do so, as humans are not and never have been homo economicus, but that is largely an aside to the real point. 

The relative popularity of check-out kiosks at grocery stores, and other low-human-contact services such as internet retailers trouncing brick and mortars, suggest that this is limited to a niche appeal only… sort of like horses.

My real point is actually that whatever the next revolution is, the ability to predict its effects is likely beyond any living human in any real capacity, in the same way that predictions for the Industrial Revolution were themselves largely impossible until we passed into it and could adapt to the particulars of it. I largely think doomsaying can be set aside because it seems to disregard that humans will shape the system to suit humans.

…by passing laws to make it not purist Capitalism anymore.

And what, exactly, is the alternatives? No one seems to have proposed anything somehow forestall this supposed doom of robots taking our jerbs. The supposed 'fixes’ are little more than rehashes of old policies that didn’t work then and won’t work now, and/or are ethically compromised.

It’s only ethically compromised if you’re foolish enough to think Capitalism is a moral system and that property rights are not subordinate to utility.  (Yeah I know that’s dangerous ground to tread (even if it’s true), but as you’ll see below, my solution isn’t that radical, because I’m aware that it’s dangerous.)  Furthermore, while it’s great at producing large volumes of goods, Capitalism with work-or-starve is already fundamentally ethically compromised, and therefore any complaints that “oh, it’s immoral to do something that isn’t pure Capitalism” are ungrounded.  

Also quite frankly, unless you support giving the whole of the land of the United States of America back to the descendants of the natives, then you don’t really believe in transcendent moral property rights that are beyond the bounds of human invention and therefore systematic human alterations.  Unlike other human beings themselves, who would continue to exist if we erased all our data and memories about them, allocated property rights as we know them would be almost totally gone if all the data about them were erased.  They’re just a human invention - a useful one, but only a tool.  (Yes, I know animals have territorial behaviors, but that isn’t property rights as we know it.)

As for solutions…

Across-the-board wage subsidies (edit: it’s a bit more complicated than that but you get the idea - not favoring specific industries) would not only avoid drawing the ire of economists, but allow society to lower the minimum wage dramatically (as many economic freedom types want - despite their ignoring the massive negotiating power disparity).  Job choice would expand a great deal, putting a lot more bargaining power in the hands of low level workers.  The program can be rolled out incrementally and reversed if it does not work - unlike socialist revolution.  It promotes membership in the community and could help fix improverished regions such as inner cities, by reconnecting them to the normal societal status hierarchy instead of them being disconnected from it and inventing new status hierarchies that cause collateral damage.  It would also help to get people off of welfare, and recover a portion of the economic value that would normally be lost to welfare payments.

As an aside, I’d argue the vast majority of folks who fall under 'economical unviable’ do so for reasons beyond actual economic concerns, and more to due with government intervention, but that’s largely my anarchism, I suspect.

I can’t say I agree there.  It’s far too convenient for your worldview to simply ignore the effects of disability, mental illness, and age, and simply handwave it all away as the fault of the state.

Source: mitigatedchaos politics capitalism robot jobpocalypse
bambamramfan

Anonymous asked:

Is there any phrase that discredits someone more quickly than "late-stage capitalism"?

sadoeconomist answered:

Well, I’m sure there is but I can’t think of any right now.

It’s a shibboleth for people who are not just anti-capitalist but dialectical materialists, which is the Marxist equivalent of millennarian religion. It’s like hearing someone say that we’re living in the End Times, you know that there’s not going to be a lot of productive dialogue with someone after that.

They’re like a secular version of the Millerites, they keep predicting an apocalypse that never happens. You’ve really got to question what part of their personality draws these folks to a doomsday cult, and you’ve got to question their reasoning ability when their predictions have failed to come true over and over and yet they still stick to their same doctrines.

isaacsapphire

I honestly thought it was a joke.

thathopeyetlives

It is sometimes used to refer to the kind of capitalism we have right now, where such things as the Laborpocalypse do seem to be looming rather high. 

sadoeconomist

What do you mean by ‘Laborpocalypse’ exactly

I was going to guess you were referring to Tony Blair returning to politics but that’d be a ‘Labourpocalypse’

thathopeyetlives

By “Laborpocalypse”, I mean economic/techological/social developments that collapse labor relations as we know them. 

The conventional example would be the appearance of robots that can do enough tasks cheaper than human workers that there is little hope of keeping the unemployment rate under, say, 80%. 

sadoeconomist

Man, I was really hoping you weren’t going to say that, I don’t want to have the Neo-Luddism argument again

If you want my opinion on what’s wrong with that idea send me an ask, otherwise let’s just leave it at ‘I disagree’

bambamramfan

I don’t think the term Late Stage Capitalism is about the oncoming labor apocalypse so much as “given decades to feed its own recursive cycle, capitalism looks a lot different now than it did in Marx’s time when industrialization was just coming to fruition.”

Primarily, it’s about the opinion that a lot more wealth production is in finance and sales than in the “making stuff” sectors. It’s also about soaring inequality and anomie, and alieving those are a result of unfettered capitalism for so long.

So in late stage capitalism, a really smart kid… aces their SATs, moves across the country to go to an Ivy League, after graduation moves to working at an investment bank, and spends most of their money on New York rent, ethnic cuisine, and electronic products manufactured in China. Is this an improvement over them staying home and just being an effective manager of the family banana stand chain? Who can say. 

discoursedrome

man now I want to see the neo-luddism argument

someone needs to make, like, a Museum of Arguments.

bambamramfan

Is it not The Worst Mistake In History?

mitigatedchaos

I don’t think that’s the one SE has in mind, though.

I think the one SE has in mind is that you cannot have all three of the set { High Artificial Intelligence, Humans, Capitalism } at once, so you must sacrifice one.  Otherwise, Humanity gets washed away by the Robot Jobpocalypse.

For true-blooded Capitalists who view Capitalism as a system tied into morality itself, believing in property rights and free association and the like as being inherent elements of morality rather than purely contingent ones, it’s a fundamental challenge to one’s worldview.  Kind of like a very large collective action problem, like climate change, which has a very high payoff for individuals defecting.

Of course, “Neo Luddism” implies sacrificing “Artificial Intelligence” rather than “Capitalism”, which would represent an enormous cost in terms of lost future wealth.  You already know my response, which is to slowly sacrifice larger chunks of “Capitalism” over time.

Source: sadoeconomist capitalism robot jobpocalypse

@remedialaction

Like how the birth of farm machines meant the excess former farmers were unemployed forever, huh?

A sector largely requiring large amounts of unskilled labor is replaced by a sector largely requiring large amounts of unskilled labor.  In what ways might the current situation be different from that?

Horses’ power and speed were their primary economic interest.  Once machines were able to do this better and cheaper, with horses limited to niche applications, what happened to the horses?  

Humans’ intelligence is unique in the economy, but machines are now becoming more and more intelligent and adaptable.  In one sector this might just displace workers, but what happens when it applies to all sectors simultaneously?  Why would you hire a human worker, who cannot work below a certain minimum due to resource requirements to survive, rather than just use a machine that does the same thing for less money?

Is there any law of economics that requires that someone’s maximum feasible production be enough for them to survive?  Remember to account for opportunity cost of the necessary resources in your answer, such as real estate being purchased by those with orders of magnitude higher productivity.

It seems there rather clearly isn’t such a law since economically non-viable people already exist.

This position of yours appears to stem from an ideological pre-commitment to Capitalism, and I say this as someone that argues against Communists.  The ability of Capitalism to outperform Stalin on human suffering is conditional, and those conditions have held for a long time, but that is slowly changing.

capitalism robot jobpocalypse
argumate
argumate

has anyone referred to Trump as garbage president? it just seems fitting.

rangi42

I’m pretty sure that, in their desperate attempts to avoid saying “Trump”, let alone “President Trump”, people have exhausted every insulting combination of letters.

(Next step: emoji. 🍊💩)

argumate

garbage president it is! let’s make this happen.

it suits his vernacular after all, in a twisted way it’s recognition.

mitigatedchaos

That just helps with his “Liberals HATE me, just like they hate you!  I must be doing something right then, eh?” narrative.

I simply call him the Orange Man.

trump
collapsedsquid
collapsedsquid

Today I want to overthrow our economic system and replace it with one that can make shoes that last at least a full goddamn year without falling apart.

mitigatedchaos

I have an idea for this that doesn’t destroy the whole economic system!

The simple version is to make all products carry mandatory insurance for a number of years based on the product’s functional category - this can also be used to relax some safety standards.

This will increase the cost of a product at the start, but it reveals previously-hidden reliability information to consumers, and uses their cheapo behavior to drive down risk and drive up reliability.  It also turns reliability from something management can skimp on to temporarily drive up the profits at the company before bailing and leaving in the brand in ruins, into a monthly or annual expense attached to every pair of shoes from which the management cannot escape.

The insurance company is going to be pissed if they have to payout on a batch of cruddy six-month shoes.  They will fight with the management over dumb cost-cutting measures.

policy politics shoes insurance
argumate

kontextmaschine asked:

"yuppie" and "thot" cognate to "n00b tube" in gamer culture - victors thru pursuing a viable strategy that swamps "correct" approaches the community enjoy and prefer BUT FURTHER rage at the loss of vectors by which the community could discipline & correct - console FPSes w/o ability to host servers & customize & kick; neoliberalism unbound by New Deal/Atlee "common man" laborism; feminism sweeping away the penalties & obligations that used to nerf pretty young women from being imba

argumate answered:

I see what you are doing and I worry it ends with conversion to Catholicism.

gender politics
bambamramfan
bambamramfan

If you’ve been enjoying this analysis, and think you enjoy superhero stories with rich themes regarding moral philosophy, you should try Strong Female Protagonist.

Tagline: “What are you going to do, punch poverty in the face?”

mitigatedchaos

Well you could always turn a crank repeatedly for a while.

I’d actually been looking for this comic as I had forgotten to bookmark it and forgot what it was called. Many super powers, however, can be monetized, and then the money distributed through a charitable foundation. Just imagine how much money can be saved on rocket launches for a start. Or freezing an enormous chunk of salt water into ice and then moving it, as superman is able to. Wealthy people would pay handsomely to nearly teleport packages. The question is, since they are distributed randomly, do you get one of these monetizable super powers, or do you get some seemingly useless power like the ability to see cats through walls?

The other issue being, of course, that states need supers to defend against other supers.

bambamramfan

We could do many things more efficiently with superpowers. That’s called technology.

The question every generation needs to ask itself, is why are the fruits of this technology not shared equitably among all, like the dreams of the previous generation said they would be?

Keynes on the 15 hour work week that we’d have any day now.

I don’t say this all just to be a socialist troll. I legitimately worry that many people I respect are putting great effort into developing technologies they hope will free everyone from work, and will be heartbroken when they are hoarded and artificially limited from 90% of the population.

mitigatedchaos

If it makes you feel better, as a software developer I generally vote left-wing for this very reason.  But you probably gathered that already from my support for wage subsidies/UBI, and self-reports of trying to scare people out of economically right-wing views using the coming robot jobpocalypse.  (Not that I think most of the tech is being “artificially” limited in availability.)

Though I do wish they’d quit using identity politics against me, trying to kill Nationalism, giving free passes to foreign religions on contrarianism, and trying to make open borders a reality, among many, many other things.

In fact, I’m growing in confidence that I will be considered “right wing” in ten or twenty years, even though my positions won’t have changed significantly.

politics
crazyeddieme
funereal-disease

People think calling Idiocracy a documentary marks them as One of the Smart (i.e. Good) Ones, but tbh it comes off as exactly the opposite. It marks them as

a) lacking all historical context. Do you think every single generation hasn’t complained that the subsequent one isn’t up to snuff? Because if so, I’ve got news for you about, uh, everyone on the planet. If you think that people of Yore sat around reading philosophy instead of literally just making fart jokes constantly, then you should check out this sweet bridge.

b) unwilling to understand that those you call Other have inner lives exactly as complex as yours. Look, Idiocracy is funny - as an explicitly over-the-top comedy. I’m fine watching it in the presence of people who recognize the exaggeration. Calling it a documentary implies that that’s actually what you think of poor people. Laughing at a stereotype that you understand to be a stereotype is one thing. Laughing at it with an undertone of but actually is scary.

crazyeddieme

a. But the introduction of birth control changed the whole ballgame, no?  It exerts heavy selection pressure in favor of those who cannot use it correctly, and in favor of those who can’t earn enough money to acquire it.  That seems… really bad.

Seriously, having our most overall capable people posting a birthrate well below replacement strikes me as the biggest long-term disaster we face.

mitigatedchaos

We’re not bleeding off that much IQ per decade.  It’s only really a problem if technological progress gets derailed and we can’t genetically modify/select babies by the mid to late century.

Source: funereal-disease
bambamramfan
funereal-disease

People think calling Idiocracy a documentary marks them as One of the Smart (i.e. Good) Ones, but tbh it comes off as exactly the opposite. It marks them as

a) lacking all historical context. Do you think every single generation hasn’t complained that the subsequent one isn’t up to snuff? Because if so, I’ve got news for you about, uh, everyone on the planet. If you think that people of Yore sat around reading philosophy instead of literally just making fart jokes constantly, then you should check out this sweet bridge.

b) unwilling to understand that those you call Other have inner lives exactly as complex as yours. Look, Idiocracy is funny - as an explicitly over-the-top comedy. I’m fine watching it in the presence of people who recognize the exaggeration. Calling it a documentary implies that that’s actually what you think of poor people. Laughing at a stereotype that you understand to be a stereotype is one thing. Laughing at it with an undertone of but actually is scary.

mitigatedchaos

Less compassionately, it shows an ignorance of the progress in the fields of genetic selection and engineering, which will probably spike IQ in the latter half of this century.

It’s a problem I see with a lot of political analysis, which seems to imagine that technology will remain constant. I think if one does not have the necessary imagination for that, it hinders their ability to do politics for the future, much less predict the accuracy of idiocracy.

Source: funereal-disease