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See, that’s what the app is perfect for.

Sounds perfect Wahhhh, I don’t wanna
cyborgbutterflies
cyborgbutterflies

Things that I find concerning: That some lists of abusive behaviors include “withholding sex”.

What happened to “you can refuse sex for whatever reason, even no reason”?

What happened to “no one is entitled to demand sex from you”?

I mean, look at this:

Being “asexual” is listed, along with being insulting and demeaning (as if it was equivalent to those things), as an abusive behavior that should be a reason for societal outcry.

Other sites say that “withholding sex” is fine when it is due to a medical condition. However, the person not providing sex is then expected to get their condition treated as soon as possible so they are capable of providing sex again:

So, not getting your sex-preventing medical condition treated is abuse, and not “refusing to offer alternate means of pleasure”, whatever that means, is also considered abuse.

And what I get from this is that if you’re in a relationship, you are outright expected to provide sex unless you have a medical exemption. 

It’s not like this kind of expectation fuels marital rape and relationship violence or anything.

Yet another site adds to this, noting that mental illness is not a valid excuse unless you try to fix it so that you can provide sex “normally”.

At worst, withholding can manifest itself in ways that may be a red flag for general controlling or manipulative behavior, or it can be done in ways that could be mean or abusive for other reasons (such as if it’s done insultingly).

However, the action itself is not wrong and no one is owed sex even when the person refusing to have it is trying to control others through that. They still have a right to refuse any sex they don’t want and to set whatever standards they wish before they have sex.

But I may be kind of biased here. After all, I have pretty ridiculous standards these days despite being a professional sex toy.

mitigatedchaos

It’s too dangerous to allow being in a relationship to be a default “yes, you gotta have sex or you’re evil.”

On the other hand, it isn’t fair to sexual people to demand that they be in sexless relationships.

The middle ground, I think, is that anyone can refuse sex, and anyone can refuse to stay in the relationship, and “we have too little/too much sex” is considered a valid, non-abusive grounds to leave the relationship.

nsfw content warning
cyborgbutterflies

controversial opinion: no one deserves to be bullied/abused

cantankerousaquarius

This includes (but is not limited to):

-slut-shaming

-belittling their appearance (includes body shaming and any appearance-based insults)

-SUICIDE BAITING, saying they deserve to die, saying you hope they die

-false accusations and/or attempting to spread false information about them

-threats of any variety

-ignoring/disrespecting their identity (includes misgendering, insulting or ignoring racial/ethnic/religious background, assertions they are lying about their sexuality/race/religion/gender, etc.)

-denying things said/done to them actually happened

There are no caveats wrt who this list does and does not apply to. No one deserves bullying/abuse, not even: actual abusers, rapists, murderers, Donald Trump, white supremacists, neo-nazis, bigots, poachers, PETA members, child molesters, not even (dare I say it) people who draw upsetting things. No one deserves it. No one. Period. The end.

Feel free to add on to this list.

cyborgbutterflies

The notes of these post are absolutely full of people who keep insisting, in unambiguous language, that their chosen targets do deserve to be bullied and killed.

Here is why that is not a good thing:

1- If you were to declare that certain people “deserve” to be abused and defend the concept, who decides what an acceptable target is? How do you make sure that they don’t try to abuse and expand their powers to punish everyone they don’t like with relative impunity?

Should the government decide who doesn’t deserve rights? Should popular people decide? What about angry mobs?

There are even many cases in which abusers try to portray themselves as victims in order to direct the mobs against the actual victims, and anyone who tries to stop them in general. They don’t want to make anything better for anyone, they want a socially-acceptable excuse to abuse others.

I would not want to grant anyone the power to strip their targets of all rights and abuse them with impunity.

2- If you defend the idea that it’s okay to dehumanize and abuse certain kinds of people, what defense do you have against groups that think they have a right to do it you? Nearly everyone thinks that they are the hero and that their enemies are a threat to be stopped at all costs, and therefore any kind of nastiness is justified.

What if the people you don’t like are in government and can turn this entire thing around and punish you? What if the rapists, abusers, neo-nazis, and etc. have their own angry mobs?

How will you stop them from going after their targets if you just destroyed the rules and social norms that prevented it?

3- A lot of people with PTSD, depression, and other illnesses feel like they deserved abuse. The idea that no one deserves abuse can, at least on some level, reduce those types of thoughts. 

But if people do think that some people deserve it and that they are horrible enough to be one of them? What reason would they have to even ask for help then?

This attitude can be very unhealthy to various types of mentally ill people.

4- You can try to stop harmful behavior while still respecting the perpetrator’s rights as much as possible.

For example, if someone abuses you, you get to defend yourself. You don’t get to declare the abuser a subhuman and torture them to death.

Any suffering that must be added to the world should ideally be minimal and directed entirely towards preventing greater suffering. Any kind of punishment must be aimed at deterrence and maybe keeping dangerous people away from potential victims, not at causing unnecessary pain.

No one is helped if “bad people” suffer, but it is helpful if “bad people” are stopped. Making someone stop and making someone suffer are different things and you can do the first thing while trying to minimize the second one.

If you would oppose the death penalty and inhumane prisons, there is no reason not to also oppose internet vigilantism and bullying based on the idea that bad people deserve suffering.

Source: cantankerousaquarius
silver-and-ivory
argumate

A: *makes suggestion*
B: I think that’s a bad idea.
A: what are you triggered bro?? did I trigger you?? why so sensitive???

when exactly did the “triggered” meme escape the containment field and become a standard part of political discourse, even for people who are notionally in favour of content warnings / safe spaces, and used as a bludgeon against criticism that isn’t even personal.

silver-and-ivory

It’s not like “triggered” is even an argument against something. It’s just a way to dismiss something without even actually discussing it.

argumate

in this case we’ve already gone one step beyond to dismissing objections on the basis that the person objecting clearly has no valid grounds and is simply using triggered as a weapon, even when they’re not claiming to be triggered.

it’s the “chicken, McFly??” for year of our lord 2k16

silver-and-ivory

triggered, hon? drowning in your white cismale tears lmao, your life is so hard isn’t it boo hoo hoo go fuck yourself :)) lmao

[this is ironic]

argumate

there is actually an unspoken implication that only certain classes of people can suffer from mental disorders like PTSD, so a white cis male claiming to be legitimately triggered by a particular situation would indeed be subject to ridicule.

it’s the equivalent of that “scared of feminism? well why don’t you just man-up and stop being a whiny little bitch” discourse.

silver-and-ivory

Aye.

mitigatedchaos

I think that’s part of why it escaped containment. “Man up” was already a meme in use, so some people thought they could do it back with a different spear, but then it turned out that using various “lol wussy” spears can be turned back on you yet again. That and when “triggers” expanded in scope, Conservatives assumed it was secretly a method to control the discourse.

Source: argumate
wirehead-wannabe
thathopeyetlives

Seriously. 

IT/IP Capitalism is well past incompatible with private property. 


The goverment should fdxorce Keurig to provide free reusable K-cup modules and compensate all Keurig owners for all the genuine K-cups they have ever bought since the DRM was introduced. 


Intel? Get your mask data, VHDL, process flow information, chipfab design documentation, etc on Github in 72 hours or we take it from you and put your criminal leadership in America Prison with the muggers and brutes. And then provide an independently verifiable way to kill the Mangement Engine to everybody. 


Everybody who ever had a device bricked? You’re fixing it, or replacing it. I don’t care if you have to go bankrupt calling up custom re-implementations for decade-old discontinued chips. My garnishment of your wages shall sit with you for seven times seven generations. 


Thou shalt not suffer software to be closed-source. And you shall simply have to find a way to deal with it. 


We did not oppose Communism with fire and sword in foreign lands to have a degraded shadow of its indignities enacted in our own country by self-interested corporations. 

isaacsapphire

This is an interesting approach, and one I find quite interesting. I am disinclined to find most attacks on IP very moving, since I know too many people who mostly seem profoundly offended that they can’t be free riders on the creative and technical efforts of others.

This approach focuses on ownership rights though, and more of what I consider “copy trolling” and otherwise engaging in a government enforced captured “razor business” with eg. Kcups, which doesn’t seem to outright forbid the inventor of the kcup system from continuing to sell the machines?

thathopeyetlives

Toning down the aggression yet another notch… 


The big thing I want to establish is that you can rent stuff, or you can sell it, but you can’t fake-sell it. More realistically, I propose a “hardware ownership act”  and heavy encouragement  of an abandonment license. 


(I have no idea whether this has the slightest chance of being constitutional. Doubt it.)


The abandonment license law would: 

- Make “dead” intellectual property that is not being used pass into the public domain. 

- Make patent trolling illegal (since it revolves around not using the IP)

- Require various documentation (not neccessarily full source, but definitely API documentation and permissions) to be released when manufacturer support (such as cloud servers or the sale of consumables) ends. 


The hardware ownership law would establish that if a piece of tangible hardware is sold to somebody for a lump sum without personally negotiated contracts, and the buyer is not required to relinquish it under any ordinary circumstances, then that piece of hardware is the alloidal property of the buyer. They have a fairly broad degree of rights to hack it, destroy it, reverse-engineer it, or use it in ways other than intended by the seller and the worst that the seller can do is to have the warranty and tech support department tell them to kindly shove it. They also have the right to be furnished with various documentation and not to have their hardware keep secrets from them (beyond very narrowly-drawn “root certificate” type stuff.)



Keurig can still sell coffemakers and K-cups. They can release new versions of coffeemakers with new types of K-cups and they will have a K-cup monopoly until knockoffs can catch up. They can void warranty for anybody who uses third party K-cups. 

But they can’t keep the interface totally secret and they especially can’t use licensing, IP law, or other methods to prevent people from making knock-off K-cups. 

They also can’t choke off third-party replacement parts as long as said parts are accurately labelled. 


The thing that specifically got me angry was Samsung bricking all of a specific model of phone. There was  reason behind this (the phone is a recalled product due to risk of exploding) but this is still to me a spectacular violation of the folk contract of selling durable goods, whatever the unnegotiated license terms state. 


Other things this is meant to target: 

- Modding or jailbreaking of all kinds. Google’s Nexus phones present a good example of how you can act liberally w/r/t this but still get many of the security benefits of a locked down system (basically, you can choose between “root access” and “locked-down, certified Google system” and change between them, but some features that rely on Google’s cloud infrastructure or auto-updates only work when locked/certified). 

- Microsoft going after people who tried to make a hacker’s driver for the Kinect (before they realized that they could make money on this)

- Modding/jailbreaking Playstations and the older Xboxes

- Hacking, decompilation, and the like of hardware drivers for various devices. 

- DRM on consumables and wear items for operating durable equipment (ink cartridges, 3D printer cartridges, K-cups, etc)

mitigatedchaos

Likewise, I’m typically suspicious of people who want to attack IP, but this proposal is quite interesting, and could shift market incentives away from planned obsolescence.

Source: thathopeyetlives policy

“Yes,” she declared, “all Men.”

Deep in the darkest recesses of the great Mind at the core of the World, something not entirely unlike circuits lit up in what humans would call ‘amusement’.  Its 3,768,423,281 puppets, each coated in flesh, with hairs and skin and sweat, were performing their functions admirably.

They were, in fact, extensions of one vast mind, and each could be held as morally responsible as any other.  The pretense of individuality was but a sick illusion to further aggravate the true human race.

In the space of the woman’s sentence, the great beast sent another 3,445,222 dick pics.

flash fiction mitigated aesthetic
wirehead-wannabe

Anonymous asked:

What can be offered to the White Working Class in exchange for not burning the world down? Free healthcare and more welfare seem desirable in themselves but didn't stop Brexit.

slatestarscratchpad answered:

The real answer is “respect”, but I’m not sure how to operationalize this.

I’ve never been good at treating “the dignity of all human life” and “respect for everyone just because they are human” as anything other than slogans. Nobody deserves to suffer, and nobody deserves to have their rights taken away, but I think of “respect” and “dignity” as different than that, as necessarily involving desert. To respect someone in a nontrivial way is to assess them as valuable and full of good qualities. If you “respect” everyone no matter their qualities, then “respect” is meaningless, like giving a gold medal to everyone regardless of performance.

The white working class certainly has some good qualities - some of the auto workers I meet are among the hardest-working and most dependable people I know - but again, I feel like sticking my thumb on the balance makes respect false and meaningless. If I think hard enough, I can respect some qualities in almost everyone - but it’s hard for me to deny that there are a lot of things about the white working class I don’t respect, and if I gave them special treatment in the Respect Sweepstakes just because they have a lot of votes, I would think that’s pretty dishonest too.

I think this ties into the question of “does the white working class want special treatment”? That is, if all they want is to be respected the same amount as every other group, then fine, tell the #KillAllWhites people to tone it down and then everyone will be happy. If they want to be respected more than other groups, obviously that’s a problem and the source of this whole “the white working class is trying to defend their privilege” sort of thing.

I think there’s kind of a middle ground, which is that most white areas in the US until recently had very low black populations and practically zero populations most other minority groups. The white working class was alone, they could do whatever they wanted, they could practice their own shared culture in institutions geared completely to them, and they were pretty happy with it.

Then immigrants came in and they faced demands - both literal demands from elites and figurative demands from the exigencies of society - to deal with it in ways that they didn’t like. And I don’t think what they want here is a world where they rule everything and everything happens their way and there are lots of immigrants but the immigrants are second-class citizens. I think their demand is “Look, we were very happy here with no immigrants, we’re less happy with more immigrants, there’s no reason why we should have to take immigrants, why are you insisting that we do?”

As far as I know, nobody has really addressed this except the open borders people, who say “taking immigrants is a moral obligation”. Anyone short of open borders people has no answer to this except to confuse it with the sort of racism where they want a society with lots of races and themselves on the top, which most white people reject and understandably get angry when they’re accused of.

On the other hand, most Trump voters are in areas without many immigrants (and for that matter, without many blacks), making racism and principled-immigration-opposition equally surprising. I don’t know if the immigration aspect is completely metaphorical (the invasion of incomprehensible foreign forces into a world they once understood), if it’s demographic/political (Republicans would have won the last umpteen elections if Hispanics didn’t vote, and a country ruled entirely by Republicans would look very different), if they’re happy with their own hometowns but angry about what they view as the state of the wider country, or if they’re just very confused.

But I think what they want is respect along the lines of “Yes, you were here first, except for the Indians who don’t count, and that gives you the right to determine who you invite or don’t invite into your country. We won’t let new people in unless you like and approve of them and think they’re a good fit for your community.”

Since that’s never gonna happen, maybe we can just give them a basic income instead.

isaacsapphire

No no no no no.

Basic income is ABSOLUTELY NOT a substitute for respect. Shoving blue collar Whites off into the same category as ghetto Blacks and refugees and the non-working class is absolutely not a solution.

When someone says, “I want jobs, I want to support my family, I want to stand on my own two feet and be respected” the answer is not to sign a small government check just barely big enough to survive on and hand it out to everyone, because doing that is an extremely sincere statement that 1. You cannot, will not, do not have the slightest interest in addressing their desires/needs. 2. You think they are identical to the welfare dependents they aim to not be like.

The works progress administration is a LOT closer to something that would actually satisfy the needs, if you’re barking up the “throw vast stacks of government money at the problem” tree.

wirehead-wannabe

Okay but at some point we’re going to have to own up to the fact that we have to choose between a mostly efficient free market and a less efficient, less free market in which we create a bunch of arcane laws to give people busywork, right? Being mad at democrats for taking away the jobs implies that there would be jobs if the democrats hadn’t interfered, or that they’re blocking some measure that would help rebuild rural economies. As far as I can tell, neither of those things are true. In fact, I haven’t heard a single policy suggestion for how we are supposed to “address the needs” of Trump voters other than by giving them welfare. This is just the same “job creation :D” rhetoric we’ve been hearing for years, and it’s just as vague and counterproductive and full of false promises.

isaacsapphire

I don’t disagree that it’s not obvious how to actually “create jobs” or that most political promises to do so don’t create results.

But… You’re all smart people. You’re a bunch of entrepreneur/philanthropist wannabes. So look at it that way; how can you monetize the mass of mechanically skilled workers in rural America? Build a business model that uses that.

Or figure out a revitalization plan on philanthropy model.

Or, hell, figure out how to eliminate the small towns. Set up a refugee program. Heck, again, there’s precedent for that in the Great Depression too.

wirehead-wannabe

The point I want to make is that it might turn out that all possible fixes do more harm than good, and that if there is a way to monetize the mass of mechanically skilled workers I have a hard time imagining that the market won’t uncover it for anything other than, like, public infrastructure projects that can’t necessarily be relied upon as a source of employment long term. And if it turns out that there aren’t any good policies to put into place, we need to be honest about that and not enact bad ones as a form of appeasement.

isaacsapphire

You guys are Rationalists! You are the people who want to build god and conquer death and Save The World™! You are the people of self-improvement and “growth mindset” and a thousand crazy ideas to solve the world’s problems!

That you run the white flag up at this problem so fast you break the sound barrier does not give lie to the suspicion that you are at heart just a Silicon Valley cargo cult incapable of even contemplating any problem that can’t be mapped onto a White Savior complex.

wayward-sidekick

Rather than argue about whether or not we should be able to come up with something, I think the virtuous thing here would be to try and actually come up with something for at least five minutes. (I am proud to call myself a rationalist and have been successfully insultsniped by the implication there is a thing we cannot think about.)

So, I think I can come up with lots of jobs people could be paid to do that wouldn’t be busywork. They wouldn’t be efficient jobs - if it was worth it to pay them to do it, the market would probably already be doing it - but if we have the money to pay them a universal basic income, then we have the money to employ them doing a job which is paid a salary identical to universal basic income. And that might be a legitimately better idea, because it gives them a sense of being Upstanding Hardworking Members Of The Community that is necessary for a lot of people’s self-esteem.

They could work on big public infrastructure projects, they could build monuments, they could build houses, but those things cost money for the bricks involved. Better ideas might be… they could sweep roads and clean public buildings and dig ditches.

But even with that kind of stuff, there’s a limit to how much busywork we can come up with. What I think might work is to give them jobs caring for each other.

My first idea was that caring work is genuinely important work that isn’t busywork, and doesn’t cost money to pay for bricks, and you won’t ever run out of. It doesn’t take a lot of skill to help elderly people get to the shops and back, or help disabled people move around. And if we had a huge army of state-funded carers, we might be able to provide carers not just for elderly or physically disabled people, but for students who want someone to help them get out of bed in the morning, hassled teachers who want a hand carrying piles of books around, dyslexic people who want someone to read aloud to them so they don’t have to read, lonely old people who just want someone to chat to… we might create a society where you request a bit of help, and someone on the work-for-universal-basic-income-program shows up and gives you a bit of help.

But, like, I recognise that not everyone is as Hufflepuff as I am, and some people won’t find carrying an elderly disabled person’s shopping for them meaningful and fulfilling, they’ll find it demeaning.

So then I thought: give them jobs as community-builders. Pay them to run soup kitchens that bring people in their communities together to eat. Pay them to organise quiz nights at the pub and football tournaments on the local green. Pay them to organize town hall meetings. Pay them to run a local chess society. You kill two birds with one stone: you improve their communities, and you give them fulfilling work.

Separately, something else we might consider is a land program.

I have no idea if this has ever been tried, but imagine taking all the rural parts of the country, and also taking all the working class people who want jobs, and dividing up the land among the people. Each of them might get a pretty small plot - like a kilometre squared or something - but it would be theirs. If they want to take pride in something, and do hard work, and feel like they’re contributing something, well, there’s their land. They can build a house on it, they can farm it and sell the goods, they can join together with a bunch of adjacent landowners and try to build a theme park. Most of them will fail, but we don’t care, because the point of the employment wasn’t for them to be successful, it was for them to feel like they do something. Some of them may succeed and be awesome for the economy.

There’s a bunch of obvious issues with this, including the cost of acquiring the land from whoever currently owns it and isn’t using it, and monitoring the environmental impact of whatever they do to the countryside we give them, but you come up with something better.

I think one issue might be that these people don’t just want jobs, they want to feel like the jobs earn them something. They want to feel like because they’re doing a job, they’re better off than a welfare recipient. But while “if we have enough money to pay them universal basic income, we have enough money to pay them a salary equivalent to universal basic income in exchange for busywork employment” is trivially true (since we don’t actually care about whether the job gets done well so we’re not exactly going to pay for much oversight), “if we have enough money to pay them universal basic income, we have enough money to pay the people who do jobs slightly more universal basic income than the people who don’t” might not be. And I’m not OK with forcing all UBI recipients to do the busywork - some of them won’t be capable of doing the busywork. A lot of people who end up unemployed are unemployed because they can’t work, whether because of disability or whatever else.

I don’t know if they would be satisfied with jobs that pay a salary exactly equivalent to what they’d be getting if they were on UBI. I think it might plausibly be worth paying them a little extra to do the job, even though we don’t actually want the job done and this is a giant waste of money, because… it’s not a waste of money to give people a sense that they’re doing something fulfilling, any more than it’s a waste of money to provide them with healthcare or education or the UBI we were planning on offering them anyway. They’re human beings, they have needs.

plain-dealing-villain

The community building thing might work, at least for some significant chunk of people. The caretaker wouldn’t; I think it’s not just Hufflepuffiness that makes that appealing, AFAICT most people find it demeaning (also it requires a lot of emotional labor in the older sense of performative emotion, which is draining and which many people are terrible at).

The best idea that came up when my house was discussing this election night was unnecessary infrastructure. Building roads that few people will use, laying down rail, reparing roads etc. It would have a marginally-useful result, if probably not actually worth the cost, and construction is one of the prototypical categories of “good jobs”. (Rebuilding national parks, trail-blazing, and similar things are a related category that we know worked pretty well.)

As to @isaacsapphire‘s claim that this should be easier than things we’ve already set out to do: those are mostly-technical problems, with plausibly technical solutions. This problem is a purely social one - ennui, but with added poverty and more social stigma - and those are much harder. (Well, we can fix the added poverty.)

wirehead-wannabe

@plain-dealing-villain @wayward-sidekick I get the sense that people are asking specifically for jobs that will be available long term (as in, like, preferably multiple generations). Merely providing people with an opportunity to perform services for money feels like it misses the point of what people actually want to get out of a labor economy (social status, structure, something they can teach to their kids) besides just being paid. (I could be totally wrong on this.)

mitigatedchaos

You guys missed an option over the medium-term here, which is to cut down the minimum wage to almost zero, then issue a declining, per-hour, direct wage subsidy directly to workers.  At $0.50-$2/hr, businesses and communities will *find* something to do with all these people.  It also won’t be a total economic loss, and would probably help sort out the inner cities as well, and wage subsidies are favored by economists.

You do have to prohibit it from applying to exported goods/services and government positions, though.

Source: slatestarscratchpad

How terrifying is it for the prospect of effective governance that even ranked choice voting is considered too complex for some voters?

Not that disenfranchisement isn’t dangerous - if people who couldn’t even understand ranked choice voting couldn’t vote, it could undermine their ability to upset the applecart when they notice bad changes in their lives and give them even less weight in the fake utility function of the legislature.  But even with that considered, “rank these guys by how much you like them” shouldn’t be that hard.