Oceans Yet to Burn — isaacsapphire: mitigatedchaos: Maybe the...

isaacsapphire

mitigatedchaos

Maybe the reason so many Leftists think white nationalists cannot be deconverted is because they cannot deconvert them.

If you believe in collective ethnic ownership of the land, you believe in one of the core components of ethnonationalism. And if you believe that ties into race, you believe in a core component of racial ethnonationalism.

Asking a white nationalist to come down from the tree of white ethnonationalism is not going to work while you, yourself, are up a tree of ethnonationalism. It’s hypocritical, and hypocrisy is not very convincing.

The real alternatives are more in the realm of individualism - placing individuals over ethnic groups (and ethnic group membership) - and civic nationalism - placing the nation and national culture above ethnic groups. But both of those are very unWoke.

isaacsapphire

I’m getting increasingly suspicious and uncomfortable about the Leftist branch of ethnonationalism, after initially letting it fly under the radar due to the company it kept.

This is in contrast with my position on White Nationalists, which has always been suspicious, uncomfortable, and at least low key hostile: they want to harm and kill people I like, or kick out people I like having around and think improve the community, and then there’s the whole sexism/White women are morally obligated to pop out babies thing which is only debatably better from my perspective than just straight up wanting to kill me.

The thing is, we could go with a throwback, “every ethnic/linguistic group ought to have a state, and every state ought to be homogeneous” with lots of bickering about who’s homeland every inch of the planet is, and that has plenty of issues, but it has at least a veneer of fairness and a hypothetical possiblity of everyone surviving. In practice, it’s not any of those things, but on paper it’s not immediately obvious that it’s a recipe for genocide, or at least it’s possible to pretend that it’s not.

Current Leftist “woke” ethnonationalism though, is implicitly, and sometimes explicitly, genocidal/proto pro rape as a tool of genocide. There is not a veneer of mutual survivability, and this is presented as a plus.

mitigatedchaos

Oh yeah, white nationalism is definitely not trustworthy, and it would seek to kick all sorts of great people out of the country, and has a record of killing people.

And at the same time, I think it’s reacting to that undercurrent within the implicit ethnonationalism among the Woke crowd.

There’s definitely also a contradiction in there - if whites all have to leave America because it is the rightful land of the natives which they stole, then they go back to Europe - but this will massively tilt Europe back to being white, when they instead want it to become ‘diverse’ and ‘brown’. (They use the word ‘brown’. I find it kind of weird tbh.) I definitely pick up on a signal of just… “white people should just not-exist for their crimes”.

And, well, hoo boy, nothing is going to create white nationalists quite like that.

Source: mitigatedchaos racepol

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“10/ Here's Singapore's long term prime minister Lee Kuan Yew:”

a-sleepygoldenstorm

What neither side of US politics wants to admit: the promotion of identity politics combined with the declining white super majority has led to turbo charged white identity politics. Since Dems catered for non-white identity politics, Trump and the GOP took hold of white identity politics.

Most countries that do not have a 70%+ super majority ethnic group have ethnicized electoral politics.

mitigatedchaos

Yes, my fear is that Lee Kuan Yew is right.

Source: a-sleepygoldenstorm politics torches in the night racepol

Maybe the reason so many Leftists think white nationalists cannot be deconverted is because they cannot deconvert them.

politics grumpy racepol

squareallworthy

Anonymous asked:

Do you honestly think there's any chance that your very intellectual approach to politics will ever translate into a movement radical enough to mobilize people to implement it?

mitigatedchaos answered:

“Very intellectual”

Heh.

Could someone start a knock-off of Singapore’s People’s Action Party and get any seats for it?

Not under the current electoral system in America, though we see elements, bits and pieces can sometimes get through, such as Maine adopting a kind of preference voting for the governor’s seat.

The polarization into two parties is the natural state of the first-past-the-post, winner-take-all electoral system - you want exactly 51% of the vote in order to have the minimum amount of compromise. This creates a lot of dumb politics.

There is, after all, no place for me in the Republican Party, nor in the Democratic Party.

However, while a unified party powerful enough to take power may not emerge, some ideas, elements, and legislative reforms could get through. And if there are subtle changes to the system, then a more unified platform could become viable.

Some of these elements which escape to be adopted by others may be ideological in nature. Some of my posts on Nationalism have caused some local Rationalists to scratch their heads, wondering “wait, why isn’t that the argument actual American nationalists, in the form of the GOP, actually make?” Or otherwise they simply have never been exposed to an argument for Nationalism that is more than performative flag-waving, by the kind of person who believes that nations are both real and fake at the same time, that can see them as constructs, but still considers them desirable. Also, many may not have been exposed to the idea that open borders may be a pathway to an incompetent yet oppressive world government (gradually, over time).

Likewise, in constructing a kind of Social Centrism, most people do not currently have access to arguments against the most liberal positions (on e.g., polygamy) that are rooted in secular considerations and which also take in mind future developments (e.g., Transhumanism).

There is a question - when GOP members exit their current ideological basis, what will they exit to?

By making these arguments, which then are shared, I create a more defensible ideological position of retreat other than just crossing over entirely to the other side.

The ideal body for my politics right now, given conditions, would be a think tank that could conduct research and produce ready-to-sign legislation along pathways that the existing political parties are not currently setup to defend against (insufficient pre-built memetic barriers - battles they don’t even realize they are or will be fighting). This does not require a mass movement, but rather a fairly good-sized chunk of funding and a core of intelligent and motivated contributors.

On a more mass basis, once a more clear ideology is produced, I think it can be simplified in a way that is more easily communicated…

…though that may still have issues generating sufficient excitement.

squareallworthy

If you are concerned about the polity in a multi-racial society breaking up into a number of racially-aligned parties, then isn’t the two-party system we have in the United States a good idea?

mitigatedchaos

A good question, but is it better to have one “White Party” and one “Everyone Else Party”?

Or one “White + Asian Party” and one “Everyone Else Party”?

The real answer, I think, is to knock it the fuck off and realize that Melting Pot + Civic Nationalism is the superior model for racial harmony vs. SJ and its subtextual ethnonationalism and racial intellectual property rights.

Source: mitigatedchaos politics racepol

brutereason

“You liberals and your safe spaces/trigger warnings/elitism/anti-fascist protests are the reason we have the alt-right” isn’t wrong just because it’s cruel and victim-blaming. It’s wrong because…well, follow that to its logical conclusion.

Suppose you’re right. Suppose we live in a world where a group of overeager progressive students demanding trigger warnings can actually cause large groups of Nazis to march with assault rifles and elect a leader who promises to bankrupt, deport, imprison, assault and/or kill millions of people. Suppose we live in a world where one punch thrown by an Antifa protester naturally and rightly leads to mass curtailment of civil rights for everyone.

Suppose we live in a world where those on the side of justice have to be perfect, have to moderate our language and keep our voices down, have to assemble politely and calmly, or else we can and should expect violent repression.

What kind of world is that?

If we live in a world where overeager college kids naturally provoke Nazi aggression, then the Nazis have already come, and the college kids and the Antifas and whoever else you want to blame today are just convenient targets.

mitigatedchaos

“On the side of justice” - Hint, not everyone agrees that your faction is “on the side of justice,” especially when that faction is willing to do things like overlook sex crimes for ideological reasons. (“But right-wingers ignore sex cri-” right, but you’re implicitly claiming that you are better than them. If you aren’t really, why bother with you?)

Look, there can be dustups without it escalating so much. White nationalists were fringe earlier.

But there is support on the Left for demographic replacement, combined with an implicit belief in ethnonationalism for everyone except white people.

Every time some progressive talks about how “we are the guests of the native tribes here in Michigan,” it supports collective ethnic ownership of the land, which is a core component of ethnonationalism.

You cannot have collective ethnic justice and not have white nationalism.

Either you have civic nationalism without white nationalism, or you have individualism without white nationalism, but you cannot have racial consciousness without white people having racial consciousness, too.

And yeah, historically, white nationalism has been bad. So maybe I don’t appreciate people running around specifically making white people aware of their race and how it’s “problematic” all the time making them identify harder with whiteness.

Spencer’s rally wasn’t even that big! They had to truck people in from all across the country! That whole “anti Nazis” rally in Boston or whatever dwarfed the KKK that were said to be planning to arrive by orders of magnitude.

There might be ways to have ethnic consciousness without causing white ethnonationalism, but they are ideologically prohibited to you, and would probably look more like the behaviors of East Asian soft authoritarian low-democracy city-states than anything you’d see in a diversity seminar.

grumpy uncharitable racepol

Also, when it comes to race and politics in this country, I would like to point out that we have not tried having social policy that does not actually suck.

racepol

rocketverliden asked:

I realize the issue of Confederate statues is probably stale by now, but I have thought of a take that is probably you: replace Confederate statues with Union statues to remember the Civil War and take pride in the United States' historical military prowess

Nah, actually I was thinking that there are lots of other southerners we could choose from for replacement statues, specifically ones that weren’t all “rah rah slavery” and so on. Some of them could be a lot more modern, others from before the war, and so on. U.S. founding fathers from those states would be the ideal option for many of them - it reaffirms membership in the US, still has lots of historical weight, and so on.

They shouldn’t be more black than the proportional share of the population, though.

The goal here is to provide an alternative, positive regional identity for the white southerners that is not rooted in the racism inherent to the Confederacy. (And the racism was inherent - at least one governor or whatever went on about how yeah, this was about slavery, and yeah, this was about “the inferiority of the negro race” and so on.)

History is big. There is a lot that can be chosen from when we decide what to emphasize. There are many people, with many stories. With this, we could step sideways.

(The exception is generic confederate soldier statues, which should stay. After all, the side that wins the war usually thinks it’s the ethical side, since most factions fighting a war think they’re the ethical side, so removing them just means legitimizing the idea of removing monuments to soldiers of losing sides in general.)

However, I don’t think the capital-L Left, in broad strokes, wants the southern whites to have a positive southern identity. I think it wants to crush them in order to celebrate itself and its righteousness.

It doesn’t like the founding fathers, either. It doesn’t like the United States of America.

It could celebrate the power of the very ideals this nation’s founders espoused as the source of some of the very power that overturned the cruelty they allowed at this nation’s founding. But most of those people were white men, so they won’t.

asks rocketverliden torches in the night racepol racism cw policy politics

the-grey-tribe

politics racepol

argumate

Anonymous asked:

Worth noting regarding Trump border wall that there is already a fence pretty much everywhere fence would be useful. I suspect Trump will scale back what was promised from the best wall you've ever seen to fence and natural barriers. Then he can declare victory without doing anything since apparently people who don't live near the border don't realize there is already a ton of fencing.

argumate answered:

luckily policy success or failure has no relation to politics anyway

mitigatedchaos

This will sound weird, but a lot of Trumpers don’t actually care about the wall, per se.

The Trump administration is looking to reduce and change legal immigration, in some ways making it more like it has been previously or like other countries. (Immigration levels have not always been this high in America.)

This makes a lot of sense from a “keep Republicans able to get elected over the next five decades” perspective, as, as we all know, Republican outreach to other minority races has mostly flopped. Also, views change the more generations that immigrants are in the country. (I talk about them flipping the Asians, but it’s a bit harder than flipping the Irish since there is a greater visual difference with whites, and so there are limits to how far racism will dissolve.)

The Democrats were celebrating an inevitable demographic tide that would deliver them permanent electoral majority. However, that tide is not actually inevitable. On some level, Trumpers can probably sense that the plan is to replace or outnumber them, but America does have immigration as part of its national mythos so this is not as well-supported.

The Wall is, to a degree, just a hammy metaphor for actually enforcing immigration law, and to a lesser degree, changing immigration rules. If he changes immigration / enforces immigration law in other ways, his voters will be satisfied even without him actually building it.

politics racepol

elementarynationalism

Honestly if the Indian government buying the bullet train off of the Japanese in the hopes it repeats its zero-accident track record in Delhi isn’t the most ingenious experiment in human biodiversity theory, please find me a better one.

Wait until Dinesh decides the bolts don’t really need to be screwed on as tight as Takashi told him and we’ll see if they match that record.

mitigatedchaos

Bro, m8, buddy, pal,

We don’t have a non-corrupt India with which to separate out biological factors, including environmental ones (such as poor nutrition), so “does India fuck up the bullet train” does not work as an experiment for your hypothesis.

elementarynationalism

You’re not dealing any more in the scientific method than I am. You hazard to bet the fact that bullet trains won’t work in India is down to something intangible like “corruption” and I’m suggesting it’s got more to do with human capital.

People who shit in the street and ride on the top of freight trains aren’t doing so because of poor nutrition, fam.

mitigatedchaos

But they might out of cultural factors. (Also, poor nutrition, in the aggregate, could harm national IQ and mental health, among other things.)

Corruption is a norm, it can be removed (Singapore) by sufficiently-determined group of actors passing and enforcing the right laws.

The trick is that it’s based on expectations about others engaging in corruption and expectations of getting caught. It also arises when it’s impossible to function without violating the rules.

When corruption rates are high, there is not only a social expectation that one will get away with it, but there’s also the effect of “but everyone else is doing it - why do they get to benefit, but not me?” Additionally, there are networks of corruption that can be relied on.

Increasing the odds of getting caught and punished above a certain level eradicates the pro-corruption network effects. (This could be achieved with a series of sting operations all unleashed at once as a form of shock therapy.) At that point, corrupt officials become isolated individuals with far less expectation of getting away with it.

After a while, the next generation of bureaucrats rises in which the default is that corruption is almost unthinkable, and the relative rarity at that point makes it much less costly to police.

Under Communism, because it’s so at odds with reality, arresting the corrupt officials won’t work as well because they may have to lie and be corrupt to survive, normalizing corruption. Similarly, some cultures with a strong external locus of control or other elements may be prone to corruption.

politics racism cw policy racepol the red hammer the iron hand

argumate

xhxhxhx:

During the Second World War, the Japanese Canadian population of coastal British Columbia was divided and resettled across the Canadian interior.
The Japanese Canadians did not concentrate anywhere. There were no resettled communities, only families and individuals. They did not live close to one another. They did not make new communities, out of a fear that they might once again become public enemies.
A few thousand left for Japan after the war was over. Those who stayed in Canada did not usually return to their homes in the Pacific exclusion area, which had been sold by civilian authorities at a profit.
The resettled families did not keep their language. They did not keep their culture. They kept friends among themselves, but they did not do it in public, and they did not pass it on to their children. Their children went to Anglophone schools. They made Anglophone friends.
And as the older generation died, it forgot. Their children grew up in a community that was not their own. But, for those children, it was different. This was their home now. This was their community.
Almost. They felt apart from it, somehow. Sometimes, by a word or a look, they felt as though they did not belong. They felt as though there was something missing. Sometimes they felt as though they did not know where they had come from. Sometimes they felt as though they did not know who they were.
They felt as though their parents had taken something from them. They had done it out of fear, or out of hope. The children had not understood what they were missing. Their parents understood it much too well.
As adults, they talked to one another, those with the same skin, with the same names, about that feeling of absence. Not often, but sometimes.
But they forgot those feelings, and those moments, most of the time. They lived and worked in a world that told them this was their community, and these were their people, and this was where they belonged.
Until it isn’t.
Until, suddenly, they remember.

mitigatedchaos

Doesn’t this suggest Ethnic Nationalism, though?

ethnopol racepol culturepol politics

See, that’s what the app is perfect for.

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