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See, that’s what the app is perfect for.

Sounds perfect Wahhhh, I don’t wanna

@theunitofcaring:  it does not have anything to do with ‘nations don’t real’ and is mostly used by people who think that they are (and that immigration restrictions are good, just shouldn’t apply to sympathetic people who’ve lived here for twenty years without trouble working hard)

It’s a tough question, because I don’t want to let the Democrats subvert the immigration system, and through it, democracy and de facto ownership of the state/country.

And I don’t think immigration is the solution to global poverty.

So if it were up to me, I’d probably pick some combination of all four of the alternative policies WRT to immigration at the bottom of this ask, simultaneously.

politics

Also, regarding the phrase “undocumented immigrants,”

Since the deliberate implication is that there is no issue, these people are merely missing some paperwork, like an accident where an ID was not delivered through the mail,

This is very much a “nations are only lines on a map” style of thinking.

So let’s give a “nations are only lines on a map” style of answer.

If national citizenship is so meaningless that not having it is merely equivalent to not having a few papers, that it’s irrelevant what historical experience one has, or education, or national loyalty, because nations are social constructs and don’t really exist, right?

Then one agrees that the “United States of America” cannot hold any moral liability, on account of being a few lines on a map, or a few pieces of paper.

So every war, every coup, every conquest, every civil rights violation, and so on, the “United States of America” is not responsible for and owes, in itself, absolutely nothing.


If you do think the United States of America as a geopolitical entity is more than just a few lines on a map or a few pieces of paper, then the term you can use if you feel “illegal immigrant” is too dehumanizing, because “no person is illegal” (even though by that same logic there can be no such word as “trespasser”),

is “unauthorized migrants”.

Apparently that’s the “in” neutral word now.

I find it remarkable just how quickly the Democratic Party re-learned that a distinction exists when Trump got into motion.

politics uncharitable

Anonymous asked:

What would be the impacts of a path to permanent residency (rather than citizenship) for undocumented immigrants?

I’m really tired right now, and should probably let this ask sit, but if I do the knowledge of it just resting there in my askbox, waiting, will nag me.

There are a few big implications.

  1. It prevents, limits, or slows attempting to subvert democracy by sabotaging (or ““sabotaging,”” depending on your morality) the immigration mechanism.  “Just bring in millions of people who will vote for my party” is a potentially exploitable flaw in conventional democracy which could, potentially, result in an unstoppable feedback cycle.
    1. In this vein, it dis-incentivizes political parties from deliberately bringing in “undocumented” immigrants because they have far less to gain from it.
    2. It also disincentivizes the immigrants themselves from coming somewhat relative to a pathway citizenship, although I suspect most are chasing money rather than political voice.
  2. It risks creating a long-term, permanently-disenfranchised underclass who cannot vote in their own interests.  This depends significantly on the implementation.
  3. Relative to current policy, it accomplishes some of the same goals as a pathway to citizenship, but changes the voting demographics more slowly (one generation vs more-or-less immediately).  So if you were hoping to reduce criminal activity and exploitation through naturalization, you could do most of that with permanent residency.

Of course, a major part of why there is illegal immigration into the country is because you can exploit them in ways that you can’t exploit the natives - not just because the natives can vote, but because people who violated immigration law have to stay under the radar to avoid potential deportation/etc, and so will have to be much more desperate before turning to law enforcement.

The businesses supporting this out of a desire for cheap and exploitable labor do not actually want these people properly naturalized, because then they’d have to pay them more, so they’d tend to just import more unauthorized labor.

It’s important to remember that a pathway to citizenship does nothing to stem the flow that caused this in the first place, and is thus not a real solution.  

Immigration cannot solve global poverty while the rate of new people created each year massively exceeds the capacity of developed nations to take them in.

Only developing the countries of origin economically, such that they are wealthy enough that people mostly don’t want to leave, can truly solve global poverty.

There are also other policy alternatives.

  • Issuing a large number of long-term work permits (8-20 years) based on the number of unauthorized migrants currently in the country.  This would allow some of the same effects of bringing people up to the surface, but without the same commitment as permanent residency or citizenship.  However, it is sorta kicking the can down the road.
  • Allow the individual states to issue a number of permanent residency permits proportional to their population, at their discretion.  I have joked about this, but it’s actually an option worthy of consideration.
  • Implement hourly wage-subsidies for low-wage American workers, but only for citizens.  While this is useful for the poor, and may significantly increase their negotiating leverage, it may even have some business backers.  Driving down the de facto wages for all non-citizens, who are not eligible for the subsidy, makes coming and staying far less profitable (and thus desirable) for unskilled labor.
  • Allow more immigration above current regular levels, but all of these additional immigrants must be sponsored and insured by specific American citizens/charitable organizations, including any education they may require to meet basic levels.  (aka “if you want this so badly, you pay for it”)
anons asks politics policy
wirehead-wannabe
wirehead-wannabe

@kontextmaschine wanna help me understand what the hell is going on here?

mitigatedchaos

I agree with another poster - this may actually be for right-wing purposes, and thus subversive.  (Yes, subversive.)

…which has me quietly laughing behind my screen.

I heard about it offhand, and was thinking maybe I didn’t approve because more and more, there aren’t male spaces anymore, while female spaces are allowed to exist with questioning only from the fringes.

But a long time ago, I did think they should be unified.  After all, we aren’t getting a national youth corps anytime soon that will teach American children leadership skills, first aid, and knot tying while stuck in real-time and unconnected to the Internet.

Noting that this may be to undermine the left/liberalism of the Girl Scouts has me thinking that on net, I approve.  The Feminist groups that are acting unsure about this can probably sense that their power is being attacked, but probably don’t fully understand how.

Scouts Canada has been unified for some time, IIRC.

But where will boys get those single-gender development experiences now?  Hmn.

politics

learn-tilde-ath asked:

If you would, could you please say some thoughts (even yay/nay/mu) on this policy proposal? : When taking the census in order to determine the number of house seats for each state, people who the state has revoked franchise/voting-rights from (as part of result of being convicted of a crime) don't count towards the population of the state for the purpose of determining number of house seats.

This seems reasonable to me on first reading.

My late night tired concern is that the census might not update the house seats fast enough to account for changes in policy or something.

It could act as a pressure against the politicians to be Tough On Crime, or at least for them to use whatever means they can to try to strip their opposition from voting.  On the other hand, I’m not sure I want certain convicted criminals voting until they are, at least, out of prison again.

I may return to this later.

asks learn-tilde-ath politics policy

samueldays asked:

I sort of want to argue with you about your recent quoting of the Second Amendment, but first I think I should know with what mindset you're quoting it. Principle of extrapolation? Restriction to be worked around? Law? Representation of certain mindset? Something else?

Shitposting.

Well, not entirely shitposting.  

Let’s be honest.  That policy is not going to happen.

Most Americans don’t care enough about civil defense, the gun owners will fight it out of fear that lefitsts will try to use it to take all their guns, groups of leftists will try to use to take all the gun owners’ guns, and so on.

Yes, it’s intended to take a touch of the spirit, of a militia for defense of the country, the distribution of power among the people…

But mostly it was just to be a wacky compromise proposal under Nationalist terms to present what such an alternative might look like.  …if it wouldn’t be immediately expanded to try and seize the guns.  And for comparison with the Swiss.

Although I’m not joking that I’d like to see martial arts as part of high school curricula in other posts.

politics asks samueldays
kissingerandpals
kissingerandpals

Stop with the president Zuckerberg memes, you guys don’t know how dangerous memes can be in bending the fabric of reality

mitigatedchaos

Okay, so not joking:

I think Trump can beat Zuck, and I think the Democrats (or rather the party leadership) are currently, uh, clueless enough to pick him.  I don’t think the rank’n’files want him.

I do think he’s positioning himself to run.  It’s going to be an uphill battle seeing as he’s a white male tech billionaire, and not even a cool one like Elon Musk.

Trump’s going to be tougher to beat than he looks.  It depends in part of how much legislation he can get passed and how much of the GOP elite he can shift - particularly during the mid-terms.  The Trump base want to use the mid-terms for that purpose.

By the time we get to 2022, I think some of the Democratic leadership will have changed, and conditions will be less favorable for The Zuck.

I put 70% Zuck goes for it, 30% he gets the nomination if he does, and 30% he gets the Presidency if he gets the nomination, for about ~6% chance.

politics predictions

Some Ideas on Political Experimentation

A. Outwards-spiraling iterative development across multiple successive levels.

  1. First level is the guy that actually comes up with the idea.  Naturally, when someone develops a policy, they usually come up with some of the initial objections and work through them.
  2. The “wisdom of crowds” in some studies ended up being the wisdom of a number much smaller than a crowd.  Get 2-5 others to review it and search for holes.  Iterate.
  3. After several iterations, conduct more extensive modelling based on expected behavior.
  4. The policy is brought to a group of 10-20 people to review and find flaws in.  (To get a proper review, incentives may need to reward good flaw-finding, perhaps according to a few supervisors.)  Iterate.
  5. After several iterations, a small “lab-based” experiment is devised to test the policy, approved by some number of the flaw-finders.  While this might seem like a toy model, behavioral economists have been able to develop some real findings by just seeing what smallish numbers of people actually do in their simulations.  The experiment members should be prevented from suffering any negative repercussions for the providing politically “wrong” answers, and possibly assigned aliases for the experiment.
  6. Depending on results, go back to 1-4 to incorporate the new data.  Iterate.
  7. Larger experiment with more complex model and more actors.
  8. Policy is rolled out to a small, real-world group that volunteers for it.  Wait some appropriate amount of time to see initial results, mostly to rule out catastrophic failure.  Iterate.
  9. Policy is rolled out to several, somewhat larger groups.  Data is collected.  Iterate.
  10. At this point we should have much more confidence in the policy, and can roll it out to a much larger organization, but still something below a whole state/multinational corporation (depending on the policy).
  11. Continue up/outwards.

Among key factors is that the experiments must have ways for experiment members to act contrary to the wishes of the pro-policy members, or to move sideways within the model as it were.  Additionally, experiment members should be rewarded with real-world money to drive an incentive other than just appearing nice/virtuous.  To achieve this adversarial nature, the anti-policy forces must be involved in planning or approving the experiment.  

A framework of methods for game-theoretical defections (or however you want to put it) could be developed, since in the real world, “cheat and kill the guy” is an option in many scenarios.

While not strictly going to capture every way that a policy could go wrong, this should act as a series of sanity checks for preventing some of the worst policies, and highlight promising policies.

B. Proportional Block Grant Committee.

Have the national government collect some share of national tax revenue for conducting policy experiments.  Since most experimental policies would be de facto subsidies relative to other states, issue it to states proportional to some factor like population or size (or maybe population times size).  This means all the states are subsidized about the same, at least in terms of the policy spending, depending on implementation.

Use block grants awarded in such a way as to make it difficult to just use the money to offset tax cuts.  Generally, give experiments to the subnational governments that most want to attempt them, since those same governments will be less likely to sabotage the experimental policies.

C. Internal migration is an experimental result.

Yes, putting a UBI in a province might result in people migrating to that province to freeload off it.  Or it might result in taxpayers fleeing.  Alternatively, it might not.

However, unless your country is going to ban emigration and immigration, this is actually important information, as are shifts in jobs, building, etc across the economy so long as your country must compete in the global economy.


None of this will be perfect, but it should be feasible to gather a good harvest of information.

politics policy