Oceans Yet to Burn

[Oceans Yet to Burn]

[mitigatedchaos]

@oktavia-von-gwwcendorff

(Also, if it turns out to have been a clever way to quickly sate some bloodlust while defusing tensions that would’ve risked Clinton getting actually involved on the ground, while informing Russia (and indirectly even Assad) beforehand acted as a way to ensure it doesn’t get misinterpreted and start WW3, and they don’t have any longer-term escalating effects, then I guess grudging hats off to whoever came up with the idea to harm-reduce the “I was wrong about Iraq but Syria totally has chemical weapons and we need to Do Something” crowd by doing Something that isn’t yet another war) 

@thefutureoneandall

I think the bit in parens is depressingly true.

I do as well, and I find it worrying.  People joke that the issue with Democracy is that half of voters have below-average IQ.  That isn’t true in itself, but…

What’s the median Clue Quotient?

Why did the Establishment, who are mostly all going to be above-average intelligence, start getting hyped up for a war in Syria?  And perhaps, more importantly, how the fuck did these people whose IQs should all be above 110 not learn from the Iraq War not one decade ago?  They were all alive and adults back then!

The only one Establishment man that I know for sure learned something was “Publius Deis Mus”, and he works for Trump the last time I checked.

[Oceans Yet to Burn]

[elementarynationalism]

Looking to 2020, there’s only one way Trump can surely win from here and that’s a Zuckerberg/Chelsea Clinton runoff for the Democratic nomination.

The good news is I’m 60% sure something close to this will happen because there’s only one party as bad at playing its hand as the GOP and that’s the Democrats.

[mitigatedchaos]

I mean, give it some time and we’ll see.  I’m still forecasting a 50% chance of reelection.

But yeah, the Democrats are almost that dumb.

[Oceans Yet to Burn]

[jaiwithani]

We should outlaw firefighting. We’re exploiting people who need money, coercing them to put themselves at risk so that others may live. What kind of society allows people to sell their own bodies like that?

On an unrelated note, it’s still illegal to purchase kidney transplants everywhere but Iran. 12 people in the United States alone die every day waiting for one. There are few if any long-term negative health impacts of kidney donation, though it does require taking some time off which anyone but the rich would need to be compensated for.

[mitigatedchaos]

There are probably ways to mitigate the incentive risks in paid organ donation, or opt-out organ donation, but given how conditions are it won’t happen. Even something as simple as “yes Dr. Richmann you may purchase a higher place in the organ recipient list, but you must pay for the procedure for four other people”.

[Oceans Yet to Burn]

[argumate]

There sure are a lot of Chinese restaurants in this Chinese town in China.

[ranma-official]

what are these foreigners thinking about

[mitigatedchaos]

China actually giant authoritarian Chinese-themed theme park - very racist! Needs to be torn down immediately for minority inclusion, end to cultural appropriation.

[Oceans Yet to Burn]

We won’t know if the Trump Presidency was properly bad until later.  The Left/Libs cannot be trusted to be honest in their criticisms, or consistent.  They’ll attack using whatever they can - they even btched about him eating steak “wrong”.  

If you get swamped with maximal criticism no matter what, you might as well just ignore the criticism and go with your own conscience.  

It isn’t that I think he’s great.  It’s that you can’t trust people who were completely blindsided, and who are ideologically pre-committed to opposition, to accurately evaluate the situation.  You wouldn’t trust most right-wing pundits on Obama, after all.

Trump bowled over the mainstream Republicans because he had three core issues - less trade, less (stupid) war, less immigration.  He will be judged by whether he meets those goals, not left-wing goals about maximizing undefinable “diversity”.

[Oceans Yet to Burn]

[ramonnovarro]

[atheistjapanesesocialist]

Oh man where to even start

[topographicocean]

What the hell is with the Scottish/English border changing and Wales fucking disappearing?

The rest of the map is trying to pull a ‘cultures get their own land’ thing, but Cornwall is still part of England, Wales apparently doesn’t get shit and Scotland is encroached upon again. 

What the fuck lol

[memecucker]

Its not a “cultures get their own land” thing the borders are supposed to be mostly arbitrary with some inaccurate names (“Republic of London” doesnt appear to include London, for one) and its referencing how in many parts of the world national borders are determined by what the European colonial borders were when they left 

[mitigatedchaos]

But borders are bad, all cultures are equal, and diversity is important & valuable ???

Why isn’t it good for the Iraqis and Turks to embrace Diverse cultures ???

[Oceans Yet to Burn]

[mitigatedchaos]

@discoursedrome

so like. this is pretty bad for a lot of reasons but I have to pick one in the interests of economy, so for now I’m just going to focus on the issue that “criminal” and “crime” have the biggest noncentrality problem going. Everyone is a criminal and commits crimes on a daily basis; every adult is a felon who commits felonies at least yearly. The negative associations attached to “crime” and “criminal” only usefully describe a tiny minority of the things that are crimes and people that are criminals under the law (with “criminal scum” being an even smaller category than that). This isn’t just semantic nitpicking in this case, it’s the specific issue under contention.

Right, I don’t actually care about foreign nationals immigrating and then getting speeding tickets.  Revoking the citizenship of someone who is a member of a foreign drug cartel or who commits so-called “honor” killings, however, seems reasonable.

The idea was “why bring citizenship into it at all?” and the issue is that an alternative policy where we’re more selective in the first place or impose stiffer penalties is not actually on the table.  I don’t want FGM in the country.  All the instruments to deal with this are blunt, and some less blunt instruments I’m not allowed to use because I’m not allowed to acknowledge certain realities.

(As an aside, America is wacky in that someone concerned about Turkish nationalism should actually be happy if Turkish American formed a Turkish-nationalist political party that denied the Armenian genocide, since it means they’ll be throwing their votes away in every election. The system works, on account of how broken it is!)

That bit wasn’t about America, as you might have guessed.  America isn’t what Erdogan is so hyped about lately.

Edit: I’ll throw on here - culture is not race.  I’m not sure if you tagged because you believe it or because someone else does, but culture is not race, and there’s a reason you don’t see me complaining about other groups that have foreign religions and differing skintones.  That conflation contributed to covering up mass sexual abuse in the UK, and I will not respect it.  I have devalued racism allegations generally by more than half since 2007.

[Oceans Yet to Burn]

[mitigatedchaos]

My point is that there are not Extreme Situations for which the Ordinary Measures don’t work, this is a fairly standard situation that you seem to think deserves extraordinary measures.  I do not think it does.  

Unless you’re totally throwing out any sort of legal due process for this, not sure how your plan saves the $500,000.

Well if you don’t let them in in the first place, then you don’t end up paying $500,000 to police the crimes they commit.  Using the death penalty for this matter should increase the deterrent effect.

This doesn’t seem extreme to you?

And if you want to say it’s because they’re so dangerous and we need to make hardheaded decisions, I could link to any of the articles that are popping up all over the place about how immigrants commit less crimes.  You’re just asserting they are making things “worse.“

I’d give good odds that every single one of those articles will conflate different immigrant groups that have different cultures and thus different behaviors.  And not just different groups by ethnicity and nationality, but by legal status.  I really don’t trust Left/Libs on this matter anymore due to their ideological precommitments and general open borders stance.  (After all, “disreputable” sources reported on the Rotherham scandal and were dismissed before it got big.  No reason to trust it isn’t being underreported again for the same reasons.)

The word is that no, they’re still not up to the task of actually policing it like you say you want them to.

And so my plan to force assimilation is “wait.“  Worked for the Irish and the Chinese, it’ll work again. , I don’t really think there’s a substantial problem that needs fixing here. To the extent that there could be, I’m not sure why our ordinary legal system can’t handle it.

Irishness isn’t an ideology.  Chineseness isn’t an ideology.  There is no central book which commands the death penalty for those who leave being Chinese.

And we’re bringing in a million immigrants per year.  You say to give it time.  So why not, say, halt immigration from select countries and give it some time?

[Oceans Yet to Burn]

[mitigatedchaos]

Hell, why don’t we re-enact Sherman’s march and raze the US south, the southern US is full of shitty people with shitty politics.  Maybe burn down all Mormon churches and compounds, they got both nasty shit going on and nasty politics.

I get you wanna piss your fuckin pants because it’s those dirty furriners doing those dirty furriner crimes, but horrible shit didn’t start with immigration and it won’t end when it’s cut off.

Things being bad is not a reason to make them worse.  (This part of the problem with arguments about alcohol/drugs, too.)

We have no obligation to import these people.  We do not have an obligation to import people that will make the country worse.  We don’t have an obligation to tolerate criminal acts favored by their cultures, or tear our national social cohesion to shreds to tolerate those acts.

So some fringe groups of Mormons are still polygamists and practice shady things with young brides and that sort of thing.  Oh look, Westerners doing a bad thing.  Better import enough people that have similar practices so that it becomes normalized and gains political power!  That’ll sure improve things!  Yay justice!

but horrible shit didn’t start with immigration and it won’t end when it’s cut off.

How much FGM was happening in the US before it was imported?  It won’t stop now if immigration is shut off only because we won’t literally kick all those who practice it out of the country.

Kicking out only individuals who are actually convicted of it is the individualist approach.  And it makes sense.  The preconditions for citizenship included not bringing foreign criminal/terrorist activity to this country.  Those preconditions were violated.

In light of that, how does removing citizenship not make sense?

And I don’t really think the problem we have is “We don’t execute criminals grotesquely enough.“  I think there’s a reason why we don’t do that sort of thing anymore.  If you wanted to heighten investigation, that could make sense, but public executions don’t really help anyone.

It apparently cost $500,000 to prosecute three guys, and the number of crimes committed is far worse.

However, “diversity” ideology covered up that the crimes were even happening in the first place.  Admitting that some cultures practice this bullsht more than others was “racist”.  I mean it’s just economics, right?  Cultural differences beyond food aren’t real, right?

What is your plan to force assimilation on this issue?

Maybe we don’t have to publicly execute them.  Maybe we can just ordinarily execute them and make sure it gets in the news where their buddies we read it.  

Maybe I don’t even want to go that far.  Maybe I just want to throw the Overton Window far enough to the right that Cultural Antirealism will die and Left/Libs will at least start admitting that there is a problem and we can get a gentler solution that actually works.

[Oceans Yet to Burn]

[collapsedsquid]

I remain confused by this idea that “we need to take away their citizenship“ as a punishment or maybe precaution for various things.

Have they committed a crime?  Is there going to be some sort of due process?  If they have and there is, why isn’t jailing them sufficient?  What problem does this solve?

[mitigatedchaos]

Depends.  Whose status is being revoked?

Foreign nationals immigrating to a nation on the pretext that they are not terrorists or criminal scum prove that they lied on their immigration forms by committing crimes, thereby removing the conditions under which citizenship was offered in the first place.

What sacrifices are you willing to make to stop Rotherham?  FGM?  Acid attacks?  Turks creating a political party denying the Armenian Genocide because Erdogan told them to?

[collapsedsquid]

If they are committing crimes, as mentioned, then as mentioned there is this thing that we’ve invented called “jail.“ Has some problems, but it seems to be the established way to handle this sort of situation. Shouldn’t matter whether they’re Pakistanis, catholic priests or BBC presenters, system should be the same for all of them.  Citizenship doesn’t seem to be the issue here.

[mitigatedchaos]

Don’t be so thickheaded. FGM is a foreign cultural practice that is normalized in certain foreign cultures. You know it. I know it. It isn’t spreading here via internet meme. It’s spreading by migration. We were promised this would not happen.

The way I see it, the rise in this and other foreign-origin crimes has one of three solutions: one, if they want it so badly, we send them back where this bullsht is normal. This the most tolerant. Two, we reestablish by force just who is in charge here. Regular jail is not enough and often in countries in Europe the sentence is far too soft. The men responsible for child rape grooming gangs in England, once convicted, should be hauled in front of the community where they lived, where this behavior was too normalized, and be publicly executed after announcing their identities and crimes in graphic detail for all to hear. Three, we cut off immigration from countries or ethnic groups where this happens for two decades to give society time to actually assimilate them after abolishing the “Cultural Mosaic” model and reestablishing Melting Pot and quit mindlessly celebrating “Diversity”. We also ban some of them from marrying inside their in-group for at least the first generation.

It’s past time to stop being a cultural antirealist.

You know male circumcision is normalized in the United States. It shouldn’t be. Why is it legal while FGM usually is not? Because it has political support. I can see paths where, if we keep going in this direction, FGM becomes normalized and progressively harder to remove from the country. Already we’re on the path it was said we wouldn’t be on.