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See, that’s what the app is perfect for.

Sounds perfect Wahhhh, I don’t wanna
collapsedsquid
argumate

the other issue with prediction markets is that we already have a wide range of ways to invest based on our beliefs about the future, eg. not becoming an apprentice buggy whip crafter after the invention of the automobile.

even betting on civilisation collapse can be done by stockpiling supplies or what have you.

mitigatedchaos

Or to put it another way, Argumate, Capitalism is ludicrously powerful, and I’m searching for a way to do that for government but with a different utility function.

argumate

I think the fundamental problem is this assumes that government’s role is to search the space of possible policies looking for optimal outcomes, when in fact it’s a formalised way of handling power struggles and dividing up the spoils with less bloodshed.

mitigatedchaos

I still think it can be improved to behave more like the former. Governments routinely spend over 30% of GDP in nations with GDPs in the trillions. Improving them even small amounts could yield huge dividends for human civilization, not to mention allocate the spoils in a way that makes them worth more.

Large gains are probably possible (based on the existence of states like Singapore). It wouldn’t even have to come with lower taxes. We could just buy another five hundred billion dollars in social goods. Seeing all sorts of raindance policies and wasteful policies is aggravating.

collapsedsquid

I think it runs afoul of so many measurement, externality, long tail, and other issues that what you’re going to get is a mess, especially if you try it on everything at once.

mitigatedchaos

It’s part of a general vein of policies that don’t have to be implemented all at once.

For instance, we could start by requiring legislators to make non-binding predictions about the legislation they pass when it’s passed, with specific, measurable outcomes, like “the annual murder rate will decline by 3-5% with 80% confidence”.  No differences in pay, no firing, just a formal record to compare to.  It might not sound like much, but it’s a step towards explaining the expected outcomes of massive bills in clearer language that can be verified.

Then if that works, we can expand it and start awarding compensation based on the outcomes.  (Although I admittedly have been thinking about a far deeper version where percentile score in a legislative outcome prediction market is part of a formula that determines public funding of parties, with lots of delegated voting and other things.)

Other options to improve governance include automatically putting sunset provisions in bills and various regulations so that they don’t just keep accumulating and accumulating if they aren’t actually that politically important.  Again, small step that can be reversed.

If people weren’t such idiots, we could get cities to volunteer to test various policies like basic income or wage subsidies before national rollouts instead of just kinda assuming they’d work because it’s morally virtuous without successively larger scales of testing.

We could probably also pay more to legislators, like they do in Singapore.  It was only about $250 million or something to give all the congressmen $500k-$1M salaries, plus another $30M for the President.  For a bit more, we could pay them significant pensions and forbid them from working for anyone but the government afterwards.  If it saves the US economy well under 1% of GDP (0.0014%?) due to getting a better quality of legislator, it comes out to a net gain.  The exact numbers here are less important than the orders of magnitude.  Congress has an enormous amount of power over the economy, but they aren’t paid based on that.  However, they can use that power to get wealth by converting it via corruption.

There have got to be a hundred things we could do better.

Source: argumate politics
argumate
argumate

the other issue with prediction markets is that we already have a wide range of ways to invest based on our beliefs about the future, eg. not becoming an apprentice buggy whip crafter after the invention of the automobile.

even betting on civilisation collapse can be done by stockpiling supplies or what have you.

mitigatedchaos

Or to put it another way, Argumate, Capitalism is ludicrously powerful, and I’m searching for a way to do that for government but with a different utility function.

argumate

I think the fundamental problem is this assumes that government’s role is to search the space of possible policies looking for optimal outcomes, when in fact it’s a formalised way of handling power struggles and dividing up the spoils with less bloodshed.

mitigatedchaos

I still think it can be improved to behave more like the former. Governments routinely spend over 30% of GDP in nations with GDPs in the trillions. Improving them even small amounts could yield huge dividends for human civilization, not to mention allocate the spoils in a way that makes them worth more.

Large gains are probably possible (based on the existence of states like Singapore). It wouldn’t even have to come with lower taxes. We could just buy another five hundred billion dollars in social goods. Seeing all sorts of raindance policies and wasteful policies is aggravating.

politics
argumate
argumate

the other issue with prediction markets is that we already have a wide range of ways to invest based on our beliefs about the future, eg. not becoming an apprentice buggy whip crafter after the invention of the automobile.

even betting on civilisation collapse can be done by stockpiling supplies or what have you.

mitigatedchaos

Or to put it another way, Argumate, Capitalism is ludicrously powerful, and I’m searching for a way to do that for government but with a different utility function.

politics
sadoeconomist

Anonymous asked:

So hyped to watch as our future becomes so crazy that intellectuals now would be hostile if you even suggested it as a possible future

sadoeconomist answered:

I propose a new form of measurement of how interesting the times you live in are - the amount of days you’d need to travel backwards in time until the average person would refuse to believe you and perhaps think you were joking/insane/trying to start a fight for describing to them the major historical events that happened between their time and yours. Let’s call the unit of measurement the cassandra.

For example, on the day after the 2016 election, you’d only need to travel back a single day and tell them that Trump won to get that reaction. November 9th was a 1-cassandra day. Since Trump has taken office I think we’re averaging about 7 cassandras. But I estimate most of my lifetime has averaged in the hundreds of cassandras at least. And throughout most of history I’d estimate the cassandra level has been in the thousands, easily.

politics trump
xhxhxhx
Communism will be a system of workers’ councils or it will not exist. The “association of free and equal producers;’ which determines its own production and distribution, is thinkable only as a system of self-determination at the point of production, and the absence of any other authority than the collective will of the producers themselves. It means the end of the state, or any state-based system of exploitation. It must be a planned production, without the intervention of exchange relations and the vicissitudes of the market system.

Paul Mattick (in Anton Pannekoek, Workers’ Councils)

Difficult for the workers councils over here and the workers councils over there to coordinate their production to ensure that there are no shortfalls or gluts without an effective way of allocating targets and determining the most efficient ways of reaching them.

(via argumate)

it sounds like this “association of free and equal producers” includes all producers, hence an authority that rests with the “collective will of the producers themselves” and a concept of “planned production, without the intervention of exchange relations and the vicissitude of the market system,” which is only thinkable as a comprehensive system of allocative planning

it doesn’t really sound like “the end of the state,” though; it’s just that here “the state” has been replaced by the TUC/AFL-CIO

(via xhxhxhx)

Cyberpunk dystopia where mega-unions for the largest producers dominate the Central Council by having the largest number of employees, obtaining the most resources for themselves by controlling the planning process.

Source: probablyasocialecologist politics communism
argumate
dataandphilosophy

“I don’t think there’s a young person, a woman, a Democrat, independent or a diverse voter that will stay home.” Stephanie Cutter, Democratic strategist, on the impact of a Republican decision to not nominate a supreme court justice, as quoted in the NYT.

Just one question comes to mind: how does a voter become diverse?

loki-zen

idk about you man but I am diverse as FUCK

argumate

American racial euphemisms are so frickin’ cringey

mitigatedchaos

White people, particularly white men, know that they will never be counted as “diverse”, further increasing their incentive not to support “diversity”.

Source: dataandphilosophy politics race politics
sadoeconomist

chroniclesofrettek asked:

re: The Unfreedom of Scarcity, this looks like the usual claim of people's actions are affected by incentives, and sometimes those incentives are ugly and not uniform across the population. Therefore, in order for people to be free from these ugly incentives, you need an all powerful central authority to enforce equality. This is Chomsky's anarchist position.

sadoeconomist answered:

I think it went even beyond that to suggest that consent was not meaningful in those circumstances. An attack on free civil society has to begin with attacking the validity of consent in some way - suggesting that voluntary institutions aren’t really voluntary for some reason. If some central institution of a free society can be declared coercive somehow, then of course coercion is justified in fighting back against it, and it’s a short hike from there to liquidating the kulaks.

I saw an Internet comment once that joked that every line of argument made by a radical feminist ultimately ends by trying to prove that women are incapable of consenting to sex. Anti-capitalists do the same thing, but they try to prove that workers are incapable of consenting to employment. And then oftentimes the same people will demand obedience to the state claiming that every citizen has freely consented to a wholly imaginary social contract!

You’ve just got to be relentlessly dedicated to truth and critical thought when you’re dealing with stuff like this. Do those ‘ugly non-uniform incentives’ invalidate anyone’s agency? That’s absolutely central to their argument, and yet…no, they just don’t. Imagine if you were in a court of law and someone was on trial for murder and they claimed it was self-defense because the victim offered them a trade they found very difficult to turn down and thus they were being coerced. That’s the core of what the whole case turns on. Everything else they have to say is dependent on that twisted logic. They proceed past it as swiftly as they can and try to cover it with emotional appeals but that’s the cornerstone supporting their entire ideology, and it’s nonsensical.

bambamramfan

The first paragraph is entirely correct, except for the “then of course coercion is justified in…”. If you see the world solely as “state coercion is never justified, unless it is always justified” that follows, but it’s dumb. State action should be based on the likely, short term effects. This strongly discourages murder, because the short term effects of murder are very bad (people are dead.) All while aiming for a world where no coercion or state is necessary or even wanted.

The second paragraph is largely correct. Ideology is contradiction, and the best way to fight it is by pointing these contradictions out.

For being “ relentlessly dedicated to truth and critical thought” you’re jumping to “what would be the unpleasant effects of this if it were true” a lot more than “is it true” (at least in the above paragraphs and your previous posts.)

“Agency” is a philosophical construct. We can not measure whether agency actually exists, except for your various intuition-loaded thought experiments. There’s no object to point out and say “now there is agency” or “now you have doubled your agency.” However, the benefits of a free society we can measure. Do people politically disagree with one another? Is rape common or are people having sex with the partners they choose in a free society? Do people offer criticism of people more powerful than them?

Highly unequal fields, even with formal rights and protections, just do not look like free societies. In the actions people take, they look like feudal structures.

If you value intellectual diversity, and disvalue grudingly accepted sex, and want “lots of individuals bopping around doing their thing” that you probably should be more concerned with what reduces inequality, than on shoring up formal rules.

On a separate note, I do find it extremely funny how much you dislike my post (which was dedicated to pointing out a problem) because obviously the post means we should have a strong state, whereas the only other criticism was people disliking it because obviously the post means we should abolish government and then we will be helpless before the whims of social power.

sadoeconomist

It was @wirehead-wannabe‘s response that explicitly brought up the question of libertarianism being at fault and that was what I was responding to. I don’t dislike the post overall, I think it brings up an interesting problem and discussion, I was just trying to vigorously assert that the problem would be minimized by adopting libertarian policies in my other comment, and I was trying to make a more general point above.

The thing that you’re doing that I feel the need to argue against is when you imply things that are actually voluntary are really coerced and then you go on to imply that we should violate the norms of civil society to correct the problem because they’ve been rendered moot anyway. You’ve done it again there - highly unequal fields don’t ‘look like free societies’ to you. And yet they were stipulated as such! And then you go on to say we should prioritize reducing inequality over ‘shoring up formal rules’ - you’re being incredibly vague here but you explicitly named ‘free speech, consent, and private property’ - pretty much exactly what libertarians stand for - in the original post. So you’re arguing for violating what I’d consider fundamental human rights in order to make people more equal to solve a problem that doesn’t justify that kind of response. There is only one institution with the monopoly on legitimized use of force needed to attempt such a thing. And you want to do it through the notoriously flawed lens of class conflict analysis. I’m sure we can do without another lecture on why that’s a bad idea.

Let’s bring it down to the level of a concrete example. You brought up acting in the original post. Okay, so there’s an aspiring actress - one of many - and a famous and talented director - a much rarer commodity - and she feels like she needs to flatter him and give him sexual favors in order to make sure she gets her big break in his next movie or else she’ll languish in obscurity forever. That’s a good central example of the kind of thing you’re talking about, correct?

When she offers those sexual favors, is she being raped? I think that’s what you’re trying really hard to imply but I think the answer is ‘absolutely not.’ I think she’s perhaps in an unpleasant situation that she chose to put herself into of her own free will and we have an obligation to respect her choice. She is still free. You asked what consent means in that situation? It means everything.

And furthermore, what would you do to change the situation? Your original post ends with: ‘Class power analysis matters, or else you just end up like the Hollywood dating scene.’ How specifically is class power analysis going to fix the Hollywood dating scene? I honestly have no idea what the answer to that question could be. No offense, but I will be extremely surprised if you can come up with anything workable that doesn’t make the situation worse.

mitigatedchaos

He(?) could be advocating increased social awareness among those higher in the chain, in which, like with employer/employee it is socially considered questionable for those in that position to accept these offers. Honestly, I think the bigger issue is survival, not fame.

politics
wirehead-wannabe
wirehead-wannabe

Problems in privacy engineering that seem unsolvable:

  • - sending information to another party that lets them observe and interact with it, but not store it indefinitely (or only lets them store it imperfectly)*
  • - sending information to another party that lets them save it and interact with it however they want, but not share it with a third party*
  • - verifying that one is not currently being observed (maybe use short-range EMPs to solve this in the case of checking a room for bugs?)*
  • - being able to store and retrieve information from a device in a quickly and easily human-readabe format that no one else can understand
  • - being able to e.g. enter passwords without anyone observing or understanding the step between thinking of the password in your mind and the device receiving the password*
  • - encryption that can be broken only with a warrant somehow
  • - being able to store information in such a way that it can be retrieved and used publicly, but not without the owner learned why and how you used it (this one may be very bad for people interested in reducing the power of IP laws)

Pretty sure many of these are actually theoretically impossible unless you can restrict the amount of surveillance or computational power that potential observers have access to.

The ones marked with a * are things that, as far as I can tell, intuitive social interaction and subjective feelings of security and privacy depend on. If they end up being major problems and sources of risk, I predict widespread mental health problems.

mitigatedchaos

Neural interface, brah. Helps with some of them.

politics privacy