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See, that’s what the app is perfect for.

Sounds perfect Wahhhh, I don’t wanna
collapsedsquid
collapsedsquid

In ideal liberal theory, citizens themselves are the source of all governmental actions in one form or another. This is a unifying principle of what makes a liberal theory a liberal theory, at least for the contractarians. The conclusion then that citizens within liberal societies are not covered under the [Neutrality-innocence justification] follows in a fairly straight-forward fashion. If a government decides to go to war, that decision only comes about as a result of the citizens authorizing the government to do so. The citizenry’s role in the war is as the originator of the action towards war. This might happen electorally or it might happen by consenting to a societal structure that allows wars to be waged. Regardless of which one happens to be the case, the citizens are necessarily participating in the process of waging war. Thus, the citizens are not innocent of the decision to pursue war, for it is they who are authorizing the decision; and, the citizens are not neutral towards the war effort because it is their actions (consent) that causes the war to occur. Because the citizens are non-neutral and non-innocent, the [Neutrality-innocence justification] cannot apply.

You’re either a subject of your government with no say and therefore not a legitimate target, or a citizen with say and therefore a legitimate target.

invertedporcupine

An interesting argument.

A terrorist blowing themselves up in the middle of a crowd of anti-war demonstrators would be perfectly justified according to this theory, which is your first clue that it is not also a good argument.

collapsedsquid

If killin antiwar protesters is forbidden, what about killing civilian pro-war activists?  What about conscripts?

mitigatedchaos

Since when do such movements limit themselves to civilian pro-war activists?

As far as I can tell, “a terrorist movement which only selectively attacks political operatives that are against their national separatism” (or similar) is something that largely just doesn’t happen.

I think it would be a lot smarter and likely to succeed than what tends to actually happen.  It provides a very clear Exit path, draws in far fewer in opposition (since those of opposed ideologies are at much less personal risk), spends scarce public resentment resources over targets that disproportionately help the opposition, etc.

From what little I know, that might fit the IRA?

Anyhow, whenever I see this argument, I never see it in a more nuanced form suggesting that the force of violence be directed over the actual movers of political power towards war.  

Instead, it’s usually “and therefore 9/11 was justified.”  The problem with this is that the same reason meddling over there created the conditions for bringing about 9/11, launching 9/11 creates the conditions for the Iraq War.  That’s just how people are - and in many ways it makes sense for them to be that way.  From a practical perspective, all this viewpoint does is increase, rather than decrease, war.  

politics
peridieu-deactivated20171003
thivus

if u accept the idea that the porn industry is toxic bc of how they treat the actors then hentai is basically veganism for porn

mitigatedchaos

Now see, this makes for a very interesting screening question.

Is someone actually arguing due to the treatment of women in the porn industry, or are they arguing to reduce sexual alternatives to straight women for straight men, relatively increasing straight womens’ sexual power/negotiating leverage?  Or, are they arguing for women (or rather their faction) collectively owning the cultural intellectual property of the idea “women”?

Etc.

peridieu

See, um, there’s one other reason that you guys are kinda missing, I think, and it’s the idea that porn isn’t actually bad in and of itself, but that virtually all porn is bad because it teaches bad, um, morals? And you can, like, say that these morals are, um, inherent to the pornographic medium or just, like, products of our, uh, patriarchal society, but, like, people are definitely anti-porn on the assumption that they’re there.

mitigatedchaos

Obviously, the solution is to mandate multiple age grades for pornography starting with simple nudity and progressing through “sex within the context of a healthy relationship between two consenting adults,” before getting on to the weirder and more extreme stuff, thus setting up sensible expectations for future relationships, like alcohol laws in Europe.

This isn’t a shitpost, by the way.  Depending on the country and its legal and political environment, I think this could potentially be a good policy.

(Edit: Also, to a degree this “bad morals” explanation falls under “ownership of [the idea of women] as intellectual property.”)

Source: thivus porn discourse cw policy politics
rendakuenthusiast

One Thousand Footballmen, Standing for the Flag

mitigatedchaos

I know it seems absurd to a lot of the people within Liberalism and on Tumblr, that anyone could be against allowing the football players to kneel for the national anthem.

The performative flag-wavers surely are just using this as an opportunity to cover up racism, and “how dare they?”  And so on.

However, the thing about performative flag-waving tribalistic Nationalism is that it has an intuitive basis.

It is necessary to maintain sufficient loyalty to maintain a coherent polity.  For any ideology to exist in this world, it must be backed by those who are willing to kill or to die.  In some states, voluntary military recruitment has fallen so low, relative to geopolitical necessity, that they are now reinstating conscription.

Fighting over the national anthem at football games spends an intangible resource.

America has a large reserve of this national will, larger than many other countries, so the cost seems small.  However, it is always being chipped away at in small amounts from multiple directions at once.

And the thing is, the opposition has many people that are opposed to the existence of nation-states in general, and America as a political entity in particular.  

Since there is no reason for the performative flag-wavers to believe that granting this concession will do anything but accelerate the demands for the next one, it’s incentivized for them to fight it rather than give in, even though it’s otherwise rational.

Also, what Scott said in his Ethnic Tension and Meaningless Arguments posts.  It isn’t really about the issue itself, it’s about symbol-power.

rendakuenthusiast

Is this an argument that one should openly advocate in favor of the performative flag-wavers and against the antiracist protesters because performative flag-waving is itself useful? Is it an argument that you should begin performative flag-waving, even if you were not doing so before? 

mitigatedchaos

It’s an argument that the performative flag-wavers are not as dumb as they seem to the outsiders.  Normie intuitions are okay about a lot of things a lot of the time.

Performative flag-waving is tier 0, unreconstructed Nationalism, with many of the problems that brings.  It’s, hm, a bit unenlightened, I would say.

One level of contrarianism up, it starts getting deconstructed, but that isn’t actually complete or good, either.  You start doing this “lol, no nations” thing, and then problems that you can’t address within your conceptual framework begins cropping up.

A more enlightened form of Nationalism is higher up the contrarianism hierarchy.  It is necessary to reconstruct Nationalism and synthesize in new information for better and more accurate performance.

To put it another way, you can use performative flag-waving Nationalism to fight Nazi Germany, but you can also use it to launch the Iraq War.  Anti-nationalism messes with your ability to do either.  Higher forms of Nationalism which enable fighting Nazi Germany but not launching the Iraq War, but which can pull from the same powerful emotions and intuitions, should be designed and deployed.

Source: mitigatedchaos politics nationalism
mitigatedchaos
mitigatedchaos

Of course, my personal opinion is that I don’t care if they kneel for the national anthem - but then, I don’t watch football, so what does that matter?

Besides, there’s no way that agreeing to this will save the next Googlebro.  As a coordination problem, you can’t pact for it.

mitigatedchaos

@silver-and-ivory

it’s not about saving google bros

it’s about freedom of speech

It actually is about saving the Googlebros, and it’s about freedom of speech.  It’s just that it’s about the spirit rather than the letter of free speech.

The NFL is their job, this is something they are doing on their time at their job.  The NFL would be within their letter-of-free-speech to fire them.  

Either both factions get to not be fired, or neither does.  If they hate having this sort of thing enforced on them, then they shouldn’t be so excited to force it on others.

A lot of the dumbest rationalizations, both in the bad forms of Nationalism, and in bad forms of Social Justice, are all about “but it’s different when we do it” which can be true sometimes but often isn’t.

politics

One Thousand Footballmen, Standing for the Flag

I know it seems absurd to a lot of the people within Liberalism and on Tumblr, that anyone could be against allowing the football players to kneel for the national anthem.

The performative flag-wavers surely are just using this as an opportunity to cover up racism, and “how dare they?”  And so on.

However, the thing about performative flag-waving tribalistic Nationalism is that it has an intuitive basis.

It is necessary to maintain sufficient loyalty to maintain a coherent polity.  For any ideology to exist in this world, it must be backed by those who are willing to kill or to die.  In some states, voluntary military recruitment has fallen so low, relative to geopolitical necessity, that they are now reinstating conscription.

Fighting over the national anthem at football games spends an intangible resource.

America has a large reserve of this national will, larger than many other countries, so the cost seems small.  However, it is always being chipped away at in small amounts from multiple directions at once.

And the thing is, the opposition has many people that are opposed to the existence of nation-states in general, and America as a political entity in particular.  

Since there is no reason for the performative flag-wavers to believe that granting this concession will do anything but accelerate the demands for the next one, it’s incentivized for them to fight it rather than give in, even though it’s otherwise rational.

Also, what Scott said in his Ethnic Tension and Meaningless Arguments posts.  It isn’t really about the issue itself, it’s about symbol-power.

politics the iron hand
wirehead-wannabe
wirehead-wannabe

While this may not be the Perfect Policy That Would End All Badness Forever, a large part of my… not ideal world, but at least “world where things are mostly okay from a system one perspective” is just “competition and violence exist, but everyone is honorable and plays by the rules.” Like, where CEOs do their thing and make as much profit as possible, but are honest negotiators, don’t collaborate to raise prices, etc, and where war exists, but everyone follows the Geneva Conventions.

It’s weird to me that this isn’t a more popular position. In particular, it seems like “bring back honorable warfare, real men don’t torture children or use chemical weapons” should be prime neoreactionary territory, and yet somehow it isn’t.

mitigatedchaos

I think the Neoreactionaries would welcome it - if they thought it were remotely possible.

I certainly find something… hmn, I’m not sure what the right word is for it, but I appreciate that CEOs in Japan still experience shame as an emotion.

And I probably shouldn’t.  I probably shouldn’t be satisfied that someone embezzling ten million dollars would throw themselves into the sea, never to return, out of such a deep sense of shame.

Maybe it’s because one of our weapons against embezzlement is the stripping of social status - and if someone has no shame, it’s a sign that their social status hasn’t been stripped and can’t be used against them.  And then what is there to stop them embezzling?  White collar jail?  House arrest?  Not very effective.

politics the dark waters death cw
mitigatedchaos

Anonymous asked:

hyperpatriarchy is the worst form of government, except for all the others - winston churchill - michael scott

mitigatedchaos answered:

I will never submit to Hyperpatriarch One, or his mind control.  I’ll flip my banshee switch before I allow that to happen, and my body will keep fighting until it’s rendered completely inoperable.

mitigatedchaos

Hot Take: Hyperpatriarchy is the only form of government.

politics shtpost