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See, that’s what the app is perfect for.

Sounds perfect Wahhhh, I don’t wanna
afunnyfeminist
mitigatedchaos

You heard it here first, everyone. Be nice to the racists, and they won’t be racist anymore. Oh wait. This is the trillionth time this tired and wrong argument has been made. ¡Felicitaciones!

Actually, a black man did manage to demobilize like 30 members of the KKK by doing exactly that. But I’ll set that aside because while admirable that is a lot of fucking work and one doesn’t actually have to go that far.

What you have to realize is that racism isn’t uniform. There are some racists that will never quit being racist. This is implied by my “background level of racism” comment, and you should be smart enough to have realized that. There will always be a background level of racism because the background level is caused by old memes and misfiring human pattern-scanning. And Richard Spencer isn’t likely to just quit being racist even if he was argued with for a decade about it.

However, your comment implies that racism is a binary, that you’re either racist or you’re not, but instead it’s more of a continuum one can move along. There are people that can be shifted, marginal racists, the swing voters of racism. They aren’t Spencer, they lack a dogmatic commitment to racism, it isn’t part of their identity. Now the best thing would be to shift them less racist and actively drain the WN movement to its minimum possible size sustainable by background racism levels. The next best thing is to avoid shifting them further into racism, with the WN at least not growing. The second worst plan is to propose highly racist or racialist policies like “disenfranchise all white men” which will make people very, very aware of their whiteness and maleness and brand everyone else as their outgroup. The worst plan, which would result in the formation of a white ethnostate, would be to actually attempt this.

Richard Spencer needs to sell his plan to the swing racists. That’s harder to do the less true claims of white disenfranchisement and similar things are. It’s easier to do the more true such claims are.

So take this not so much as “be nice to racists”, but “be nice to people who are vulnerable to being swayed towards racism”. Had this advice been taken and something been done about US rurals as the rural white death rate climbed, Trump might have been avoided, since the white death rate by county forms a line correlating with % Trump vote. It wouldn’t have even been ideologically inconsistent to do something since many of them are working class.

Source: rtrixie politics race politics
afunnyfeminist
rtrixie

If white men no longer had the vote, the progressive cause would be strengthened. It would not be necessary to deny white men indefinitely – the denial of the vote to white men for 20 years (just less than a generation) would go some way to seeing a decline in the influence of reactionary and neo-liberal ideology in the world. The influence of reckless white males were one of the primary reasons that led to the Great Recession which began in 2008. This would also strike a blow against toxic white masculinity, one that is long needed.

At the same time, a denial of the franchise to white men, could see a redistribution of global assets to their rightful owners. After all, white men have used the imposition of Western legal systems around the world to reinforce modern capitalism. A period of twenty years without white men in the world’s parliaments and voting booths will allow legislation to be passed which could see the world’s wealth far more equitably shared. The violence of white male wealth and income inequality will be a thing of the past.

Inverse the races in this and you’ll be on stormfront. 

The sooner the legacy media starts proudly and openly showing their anti-white convictions, the quicker and harder the backlash will be. 

geekandmisandry

“#Anti-white racism”

😂

afunnyfeminist

*People of color and women are denied the right to vote for literally hundreds of years in the United States alone.*

White supremacists: *celebrate* *actively try to return to this today* *pass voter ID laws that marginalize people of color* *close offices in majority Black areas where voter ID can be obtained* *have fewer voting booths in majority POC neighborhoods* *throw people off the voter rolls if they have a name that doesn’t sound white* *strip the Voting Rights Act*

Someone: The denial of the vote to white men for 20 years would go some way to seeing a decline in the influence of reactionary and neo-liberal ideology around the world.

White supremacists: That’s racist! Can you imagine for a moment if this were the other way around?! What outrage there would be in this totally hypothetical situation that has never happened in real life! Hashtag anti-white racism!

mutant-aesthetic

Is this REALLY the hill you want to die on?

afunnyfeminist

Yes. I’m making my way up Mount Calling Out the Hypocrisy of Racist Ideology right now. I will set up base camp here and continue in the morn’.

mitigatedchaos

Stop and think about this for a moment. Right now White Supremacists are still only a small part of the population. They’re growing because throwing your borders open has consequences that can’t be ignored, but they are still small and are likely to stay relatively small for the forseeable future.

…unless, of course, you do something like this. There is a background level of racism much like there is a background level of radiation. Insomuch as it is true that the Left isn’t racist, this truth can be used to keep the racism level closer to the background level.

Insomuch as it is true that the Left is racist, that it is willing to engage in ethnonationalism or disenfranchisement, while actively seeking to replace demographics, while covering it with excuses about how this is “antiracist”, the Richard Spencers of the world will be able to point at this and up their recruitment, then fill them with false information because they no longer trust the intolerant tolerants.

I cannot imagine a faster path towards an outright race war and the formation of white ethnostates than the mass disenfranchisement of all white men, one of the more heavily-armed demographics in the world.

Right now the Left is “joking” about white disenfranchisement to “make a point”. This contributes to radicalization in an environment already prone to it since the WNs can sell their narrative of “they hate you, so you can’t trust them”. And the kinds of people engaging in this “ironic racism” are like those engaging in “ironic misandry” - they just don’t have the credibility to seem as if their “joke” isn’t meant, and they would not accept “ironic misogyny” in turn.

Right now most whites don’t actually think they’re doing ethnonationalism. They’re reacting to Rotherham, they’re reacting to truck attacks, and so on. If they openly regain racial consciousness the results could be a disaster. So campaign to punish police for racist behavior because that’s correlated with truth, but for the love of America do not publish articles like this.

Edit: And as to “yeah but what about” - as a Nationalist I think slavery was the single greatest mistake the country ever made, Jim Crow laws were terrible, etc. I was faceplaming at that redistricting in NC that was so racist it went to court - and lost. I supported cop cams too, for a reason. But none of that makes this even a remotely good idea.

Source: rtrixie politics race politics

Regarding arguments around race and racism.

I would argue that we haven’t actually tried having social policy that doesn’t suck yet.  A combination of factors produced by our society and policies incentivize bad outcomes.

You get the outcome the incentives produce.  To change the outcome, one must change the incentives.

race politics politics

Some of this ongoing race issue in the United States could be fixed, but it would require stepping on about ten different ideologies, spending a lot of money, and being very pragmatic.  None of those things are realistically going to happen, except for the middle one, which when used just by itself would fail spectacularly.

(Before anyone gets too excited, I’m talking about things like school reform, wage subsidies, removal of welfare trap, etc.)

politics race politics
argumate
dataandphilosophy

“I don’t think there’s a young person, a woman, a Democrat, independent or a diverse voter that will stay home.” Stephanie Cutter, Democratic strategist, on the impact of a Republican decision to not nominate a supreme court justice, as quoted in the NYT.

Just one question comes to mind: how does a voter become diverse?

loki-zen

idk about you man but I am diverse as FUCK

argumate

American racial euphemisms are so frickin’ cringey

mitigatedchaos

White people, particularly white men, know that they will never be counted as “diverse”, further increasing their incentive not to support “diversity”.

Source: dataandphilosophy politics race politics
sinesalvatorem

Anonymous asked:

It's not how white you are on the outside that counts, but how white you are, in your heart.

sinesalvatorem answered:

Leukemia is not actually a good thing, anon. If your blood is over-saturated with white cells then please seek medical assistance.

mitigatedchaos

I just saw an article last week suggesting that using identity politics in the US was a bad plan because the majority can practice identity politics, too, and the definition of “white” has expanded in the past.

I’m pretty hyped.  What exciting new races or ethnic groups will be considered “white” in the future?  Could Asian-Latin fusion cuisine become the next official white people food?  When will they be issued their official White Man™ polo shirts?

race politics politics maybe a shtpost
sinesalvatorem
sinesalvatorem

I really don’t understand white nationalists who think antebellum slavery was a good idea - even from a self-interest perspective.

Like, you guys do realise how the people you hate so much got to the Americas, right?

For people who say blacks can’t swim, you seem surprisingly convinced that we crossed the Atlantic without help.

mitigatedchaos

The first White Nationalist I’ve met in a while does indeed think that the Atlantic Slave Trade was a bad idea, and roughly for that reason.

From a regular Nationalist perspective racializing slavery was also a dumb idea since it essentially created a separate ethnicity in a group that could have been fully integrated, causing expensive and politically-divisive rifts in society that last to this day, undermined the nation’s moral character, undermined national morale, etc. And that’s before even accounting for the ordinary moral damage it did in terms of unnecessary human suffering, which was enormous.

Of course if one is the kind to practice mass racialized slavery, one may not be the kind to give thought to the long term implications of mass racialized slavery on others in general.

politics racism race politics slavery

@philippesaner

I think you’re overconfident in your interpretation of what the anon meant. Maybe that’s what you would’ve meant in their shoes, but they’re them and you’re you.

I think people can pick up on these things on a subconscious level even if they aren’t fully thinking that way explicitly on a conscious level.  I certainly can’t name most logical fallacies even when I can spot them.  (I didn’t know what the formal name for what the problem with religious threats about the afterlife was, but I could tell something was wrong with them, for instance.)

Take, for example, the treatment of racial diversity in America.  If a 100% black company is okay, but a 100% white company “needs diversity”, then this implies that blacks are worth more than whites.  That may not be what (most of) the advocates really mean, but that’s the sum vector of their words and actions as received by a number of people.  And people pick up on that as being unwanted/unwelcome.

Or to take a stronger example, if men and women are equally capable of doing good things, but men are uniquely violent and evil, then it logically follows that men are worse than women.  …and the ways to escape that tend to look like either MRA or “redpiller” (not the same thing) behavior, which are definitely not welcome within Feminism.

It should come as no surprise that are a lot of people that do not feel wanted/welcome within Feminism and refuse to have the label applied to them, even though many Feminists would want to apply the label to them.

But anyhow, both groups often don’t really go chasing down these chains of reasoning and making them explicit, since people don’t really think that way (and most people are relatively average).  But I think they do notice them, and they become feelings that baffle their opponents.

Now, it’s possible that the Anon really does believe America has an ownership claim to those University positions, and that Anon has a partial ownership claim to America, and thus some claim to those positions.  But that gets into the philosophy of ownership/property, which is a whole other thing, especially since I view ownership/property as useful rather than true.

Anyway…I don’t know much about the history of academic visa policy in America. So I can’t comment on whether every attempt to tighten it is characterized as racist xenophobia. But this particular attempt pretty clearly is xenophobic and maybe racist too.

Well, I don’t think it was handled well.  I would have done TUoC’s “xenophobic plan” version instead if I were Orange Capitalism Man.  But there is a reason I didn’t vote for Orange Capitalism Man despite being an unironic Nationalist.

politics gender politics race politics
bambamramfan
marcusseldon

I said I’d talk about politics less, but I feel like I do need to get this out of my system. 

There’s an idea going around both on my dash, and people I know in person, that the behavior of people on the left is what caused Trump to be elected. Different groups get the blame, whether it is rich white liberals in Silicon Valley, DC, and Hollywood, the campus left, black lives matter, internet SJWs and feminists, mainstream media journalists, late night comedians, or some combination of these, the theory goes that Trump was essentially a white working class middle finger to the condescension, radicalism, and disrespect toward traditional values of members of these various left-wing groups. People who put forward this theory say that to win back Trump voters, the left needs to be kinder, more compassionate, and less radical toward white working class (WWC) culture, values, and way of life. The claim is that if only the left were nicer to WWC people and respected their way of life more, Trump would have never even won a Republican primary, let alone an electoral college majority.

Now, leaving aside whether it would be personally moral and virtuous to be more compassionate and less radical toward the WWC (probably to at least some extent), I want to raise doubts about whether this perspective is actually useful for winning elections and defeating Trumpism.

No doubt many WWC people, and those sympathetic to them, feel condescended to, disrespected, and that their way of life is under attack by the left. There is also no doubt that there have been individuals and groups on the left that have been openly hostile to the WWC way of life, where “white male” is an insult, conservative Christians are publicly degraded and mocked, performative flag-waving nationalism is seen as not just gauche but stupid and hick-ish, and where white rural people are assumed to be personally racist and homophobic.

But, all political movements are going to have their assholes who degrade the other side and openly disrespect them. It’s easy to miss when you largely live in left-wing bubbles online and off, which I imagine is true of most people on my dash, and is certainly true of me, but the right has their own version of this, and it’s popular. There’s a post going around my dash about a condescending line in a Meryl Streep speech, and how this is an example of liberal condescension that created Trump, but I guarantee you that more people listen to Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity on the radio every day than saw that Meryl Streep speech. And Limbaugh and Hannity on an almost daily basis disrespect, mock, and condescend to liberal constituencies, values, and ways of life. And guess what, Republicans still won.

People like Limbaugh and Hannity, not to mention Fox News and Breitbart, make their money by inflaming a sense of grievance and resentment of the left among the disproportionately rural, older, religious, and WWC Republican base. These outlets have far more political reach and power than random SJW blogs, the campus left, black lives matter, actors or tech billionaires giving speeches, or even late night comedians. 

In the educated liberal bubbles that I and many people in my online and offline circles reside in, the reverse can seem true. It can seem like left-wing culture is omnipresent and the right is completely stifled by blacks lives matter, SJWs, and late night comedians. But in other circles, which comprise nearly half the country, the reverse is true. 

In many ways, the left is already on net more compassionate to the WWC than the right is to left-wing constituencies. There were countless articles in left-wing outlets talking to Trump voters in order to understand and sympathize with Trump voters. I don’t think I’ve ever once seen an article in a right-wing outlet that went to Harlem, San Francisco, or Ann Arbor, trying to compassionately understand the motivations and lifestyle of people on the other side from their point of view.

So the idea that the left must hold itself to an even higher standard on compassion and  than the right to win elections seems implausible to me (again, leaving aside whether holding ourselves to a higher standard would be more virtuous and moral). 

Even if the left was nicer to the WWC, I don’t see that changing vote patterns, or making the WWC feel any less resentful and under attack. Suppose 90% of the left-wing people who are being blamed for the rise of Trumpism became nicer. The Limbaughs and Hannitys and Breitbarts of the world, and the millions who follow them, wouldn’t take a step back and say “you know, maybe the left doesn’t hate me or my way of life”. No. They would continue to cherry pick the worst examples, as they already do, from a smaller set of mean liberals in order to inflame cultural resentment and grievance among their followers, and they would also continue to see things that I think aren’t mean and are true that the left says, like that black people have a rougher relationship with the police than other groups, as offensive and attacking their dignity and way of life.

I’m not saying there’s no way to convince some of these people over to the left. But, pointing the finger at the meaner (and numerically smaller) strains of the left and thinking that if only for them being condescending and disrespectful we would be in a golden age of liberal dominance in politics doesn’t strike me as true or productive.

bambamramfan

So I get your frustration, and a lot of what you say is correct. It’s far too tempting to say “Hey leftists-who-disagree-with-me, YOU’RE the reason our enemy won!” without sufficient proof. That’s just opportunism.

And we should treat the WWC (and all of the WC) in this country with compassion, and we should help their material needs, regardless of whether it wins us elections. Trying to come up with political justifications for basic human decency is a bit creepy.

(Plus, not to mention a Far Right resurgence is occurring across the entire developed world. It seems very petty to blame that on a few annoying American liberals. There are deeper trends here.)

I feel you here.


However, there is some countervailing evidence here.

1. If we’re not being condescending to them, we should listen to what our enemies are saying. And in between accusations of corruption and defending the free market, Republican voters seem really, really upset about Political Correctness. Obsessed with it, and explicitly saying they support idiots like Trump just to defy Political Correctness.

You can dismiss what they say and come up with other reasons they voted the way they did (they just want to be racist, or economic anxiety) but then that is being patronizing because you aren’t really listening anymore. If you listen, Political Correctness is a huge deal to them, and teasing out the source of that sounds like a worthwhile endeavor.

2. A lot of this is just projection from some left-of-center allies about the illiberal tactics used by establishment social justice, such as extreme arrogance, dismissiveness, shallow analysis, using institutional power to punish dissenters, and a bunch of other mindkilling, groupthink tactics. Said allies (or, former allies) really hated those tactics, and so rejoice in blaming them for the defeat of the mainstream SJ candidate.

Projection is not a good source of analysis of course, and so they might be wrong that this really caused Trump’s victory. But said establishment really should pay attention to how many enemies it has, even “on its own side.” Their tactics are really ticking off their friends, causing dissension every step away. SJ can try to ignore this dissent and pain as long as they wield the hammer, but don’t be surprised when their enemies leap at any weakness as a chance to earn some rhetorical points.

Social justice has enraged and alienated conservatives, libertarians, moderates, socialists, communists, and artsy anarchists. At some point it will have no friends left except the business-friendly / socially liberal wing of a city-based party.

3. Something happened between 2012 and 2016. There’s some reason Republicans started really getting into unbridled rudeness and race-baiting. You can’t even wholly blame Trump for finally opening the floodgates, he tried in 2012. What the hell happened to make voters so much more racist, or at least racist-tolerant? It’s not like there are a lot more immigrants around or other normal causes of racial strife (let alone to explain the tolerance of crude sexual behavior.)

And to the unaided eye, one of the real changes of the past 4 years was the political visibility of intolerant liberalism. So it’s at least worth considering “the thing that changed in the last 4 years, is somewhat responsible for the rather different outcome this time around.”

mitigatedchaos

Regarding #1: If a 100% black company is okay, but a 100% white company “isn’t diverse enough”, this implies whites are inherently worth less than PoC. If women have equal beneficial capabilities to men, but men are uniquely violent and oppressive, this implies women are better than men.

I think people can feel this even if they don’t consciously realize it.

Also, as one of those alienated types, those tactics you mention make SJ a liability to me in many ways.

Source: marcusseldon politics gender politics race politics trump