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See, that’s what the app is perfect for.

Sounds perfect Wahhhh, I don’t wanna
collapsedsquid
zennistrad

Capitalism won’t work because of human nature. Why would you trust humans with a system that rewards their natural greed?

zennistrad

Capitalism sounds like a good idea on paper, but it just doesn’t work in practice.

zennistrad

Oh, so you support capitalism? Why don’t you go move to Thailand and do slave labor for Nestle?

zennistrad

Capitalism is a bad idea, the millions of people killed by capitalism can attest to that.

discoursedrome

as with a lot of these “parodying someone’s argument by applying it in a different context” sort of thing the funniest part is unintentional, in that these are all a) arguments frequently used against capitalism and b) actually fairly solid arguments against capitalism, even if they’re expressed too glibly to be intelligible to people who don’t already hold them.

collapsedsquid

I have seen too many claims in libertarian writing that it hasn’t been implemented because powerful people are too greedy with absolutely no irony.

mitigatedchaos

Well there does seem to be this idea that there’s all this corrupt government intervention

…combined with a strange lack of awareness that it can be more profitable locally to subvert the government even if it harms the market generally.  The idea seems to be that if you stripped away all the state power it wouldn’t come back by the exact same forces that put it there in the first place.

Source: zennistrad the invisible fist
nostalgebraist

neoliberalism-nightly asked:

I think the problem with that math post is that you are distorting the description to match with your ethical beliefs. And I'm pretty sure you are aware, and I may have missed it in the post, but a crucial aspect of the prediction market is to have poor predictors lose their voting power and vice versa. And this generalizes to markets when you use the words associated with scarcity, and you can generalize it to an evolutionary biology view as well.

nostalgebraist answered:

I am aware of this argument – for instance in the paper I linked there is this remark

If long-run market forces lead those with a history of accurate evaluation to become wealthier, then this wealth-weighted average may be a more accurate predictor than an unweighted average.

But I would not say this is a “crucial aspect” of prediction markets, from what I know.  There is a lot of interest, say, in the relatively few currently existing prediction markets, even though these are both rare and “causal” enough that one would not expect to see much of a wealth signal in them due to people going broke or winning big in prediction markets (as opposed to elsewhere).

If this were necessary for the function of prediction markets, or just a crucially important element of the mix, I would expect to see much more of a “we need to wait for the data” attitude among people studying these markets, rather than an intensive use of the data from the currently existing markets to evaluate the prediction market concept itself (as we see in that paper, and in many other places as well).

So we seem to have a real disagreement about how important this mechanism is (or is believed to be).  I’m not saying it’s seen as unimportant because of my values, I really just haven’t seen people treat it as that important.

I also don’t see how this generalizes to non-prediction markets, since there isn’t a notion analogous to “good prediction” for preferences, or if there were it would be something like “being exceedingly average in preferences” and I don’t think there’s a mechanism making people wealthy in proportion to how average they are.

mitigatedchaos

It’s probably more important if the market accumulation is broken up by domains, with some secondary importance across domains at a broader level for superforecasters participating.

It may not be that the megapredictor should have almost all the wealth, but rather we might want to allow a capped range or something depending on past performance.  Sounds like a good topic for a study!

someone give me a think tank or something the invisible fist
argumate
nostalgebraist

@argumate has been talking recently about hypothetical problems with ancap/libertarian-paradise-world, and it’s making me think about a very basic issue that I don’t see talked about enough.

Namely: all of the usual arguments about how markets are great (“aggregating information” and all that stuff) also say that wealth inequality makes markets worse at doing those things.  This is not a knock-down argument for having a state that redistributes wealth at gunpoint, but it is a reason to see wealth equality as a relevant concern even if you don’t have it as a terminal value.  Even if you don’t care about it, the market needs it to achieve the things you do care about.


I’ll generalize this in a moment, but first, let’s look at an especially clean example case: prediction markets.  Prediction markets are nice here because we don’t have to worry about thorny problems about aggregating utility to construct a “social welfare function.”  There isn’t a role for disagreements about values.  Everyone agrees about what we want out of a prediction market.  (Or rather, the disagreements that exist are technical rather than ethical.)

What we want out of prediction markets is a price that corresponds to the actual observed frequency of events.  Of course, this is not always possible – sometimes there is relevant information that no one in the market knows, so even a perfect information-aggregator (say, a rational being that knows everything that anyone in the market knows) would not get the right answer.

So at best, we can only ask for some sort of information-aggregating property, something like “prices reflect the average (i.e. mean) belief.”  This is desirable because we expect many sources of individual error to be uncorrelated, and these will wash out when we take the average.

But the prices in prediction markets reflect, at best, a wealth-weighted average of beliefs.  (For “wealth” here, read “quantity of money the individual is willing to invest in this market,” which is obviously constrained by wealth in a straightforward way.)  This is easy to see informally: if there are 1000 people who are only willing to buy $1 worth of shares each, and 1 person willing to buy $1000 worth of shares, the market mechanism will get an equally large signal from the one big spender as from the 1000 small spenders.

A formal version of this is derived in this paper: with logarithmic utility, prices equal the wealth-weighted mean of beliefs.  (If you’re worried about the log utility assumption, note that this is arguably the most favorable possible result for prediction markets, and much of that paper is dedicated to showing that other plausible utility functions do not yield very large deviations from it.)

Is it a problem that the results are wealth-weighted?  Well, not necessarily.  But it’s important to note that there are two different reasons it might be a problem.

First, assume (as in the paper) that we’re in the “many traders” limit, so there is a continuous distribution of beliefs, we have integrals rather than sums, etc.  In this case, what matters is the (Pearson) correlation of belief and wealth.  (If they are uncorrelated, the wealth-weighting will be invisible.)  This correlation will either help or hurt depending on whether the bigger spenders have more accurate beliefs in any given case; it seems hard to argue that they’ll have less accurate beliefs in general, which makes this concern easy to dismiss.

But second, suppose we are not in the “many traders” limit.  The worry with finitely many traders is a situation like the “1 vs. 1000″ example mentioned earlier, where the intuition that we are getting an average becomes misleading because the prices are so heavily affected by a small number of people.

Recall that the whole reason we’re interested in getting the average belief is that we expect uncorrelated errors to wash out if we average over a large number of people.  In situations like the “1 vs. 1000″ example, the inequality is making the effective population size smaller, i.e. making our law-of-large-numbers argument weaker.  From basic statistics, we’d expect the uncorrelated errors to get smaller by a factor of sqrt(N) when we average over N people.  That corresponds to the errors getting about 32 times smaller for N = 1001.  But in the 1 vs. 1000 case, half of the answer comes from the belief held by the single big spender, which (by hypothesis) carries random errors of the same size as everyone else’s, so the error is only cut down by (approximately) a factor of 2, not 32.


Now let’s extend this to more general markets.

This case is harder, because we don’t have an analogous law-of-large-numbers argument for the claim that the the price should reflect an unweighted population average.  To argue for that sort of claim in general, we must (horror of horrors!) introduce some sort of ethical assumption, say about no one being inherently more important than anyone else.

I was being facetious in the last sentence when I said “horror of horrors,” but there are real difficulties here.  The problem is not that some people might really be inherently more important than others, but that we are trying to do some sort of utility aggregation, and this is a famously thorny area.  So it may help to be more concrete.

The basic intuitive appeal of “invisible hand” type ideas is that the market will learn to provide what people want.  The phrase “what people want” has the same thorny issue just mentioned – how do we translate statements about what individual people want into a general statement about “what people want,” so that we can judge whether it is being provided (relatively well or poorly)?

The core of the idea is nonetheless pretty clear.  If a bunch of people want something, but not enough to buy it at the prevailing market price, someone will see the opportunity to make a profit by selling it at a lower price that these people will take.  After they take that opportunity, everyone else who produces the product will notice and lower their prices, and (after some equilibration) the market price will be low enough that people get the thing they want.  Likewise, if there is more demand for something than the low market price suggests, everyone will buy until there’s none of it left, at which point the suppliers will produce more because they can afford to do so by charging a higher price (assuming that supply curves slope upwards, which is not obvious and which I’ve heard is not always true IRL, but let’s grant it).  If you don’t allow these things to happen, you get Soviet bread lines and shortages of rent controlled housing.  Or so the argument goes.

OK, so here’s a brain-teaser for you: how much are homeless people willing to pay for housing?


Although there may be some exceptions (crust punks?), people do not generally become homeless because they simply value having a roof over their heads less than the average person does.  Many homeless people would be perfectly happy to pay the market price for housing if they could.  They just don’t have the money to.

In other words, the signal received by the market isn’t “preferences,” it’s “willingness to (actually) pay.”  It’s startling how rarely I see the distinction made between “willingness to pay” and “ability/capacity to pay”; in the academic literature it seems to be mainly made by economists interested in healthcare.  (See e.g. this paper, which presents the distinction as a novel modeling contribution, and has gotten only 2 citations since it was published in 2008, and this one, 3 citations since 2006.  If I am missing some large body of research here, let me know.)

Talking about this presents some technical difficulties, since there is no well-defined concept of “what someone would pay if they didn’t have to worry about their budget.”  For instance, what one is willing to pay in principle for vital necessities will scale up with budget in an unbounded fashion: I’m sure you could get Bill Gates to pay billions for a loaf of bread if the alternative was starvation, but this does not mean that a loaf of bread is “really” worth billions, and in fact does not mean much at all.  Even for non-essential goods, things can be pretty elastic, since many goods that are provably non-essential for human satisfaction can nonetheless feel effectively essential once one has satiated to them.  (You could extract a lot of my money by threatening to separate me from my internet connection, for instance.)

But it’s not as if spending patterns are unrelated to preferences.  If you give someone any fixed budget, they will buy some bundle of goods with it (for simplicity, you can view savings as just another good people may buy, so that everyone always “spends” their whole budget).  To determine someone’s preferences, give them a series of decreasing budgets, and watch which goods they are priced out of first and which they hold onto until the very end.  (If two people have different preferences, one person will buy more of some good than the other given a fixed budget of sufficient size, and as we decrease the budget, there will be some level at which one person is still buying some of it and the other isn’t.)

Thus, the market receives a signal about “what the people want” in the following form: it observes the extent to which the population has been priced out of buying it by their budget.

To clarify what this means, consider an example.  Suppose that everyone has the same budget.  Their spending patterns will vary, because preferences vary, but there will be trends.  For instance, there are some goods that almost everyone will be willing to pay you money for if they don’t have it (food, housing), and some goods that many people will happily do without.  Demand curves will be generated by people successively pricing themselves out (in) in response to price increases (decreases).  Few people will ever be willing to price themselves out of food or housing, so these goods will have nearly flat demand curves (low price elasticity of demand) with high intercepts, while goods that people will happily prices themselves out of (yachts, tchotchkes) will have steep demand curves (high price elasticity of demand) with low intercepts.  If some good has a given supply curve, it will be produced in a large quantity if it is of the former type (food, housing), and in a small quantity if it is of the latter type (yachts, tchotchkes) – interestingly, this is true no matter which way the supply curve slopes.

Thus, in this hypothetical world, a lot of resources go into producing food (or more relevantly, distributing food), and not as much into manufacturing yachts.  Because people – you, me, even Bill Gates – value food more than yachts, and the market mechanism responds to preferences.  The invisible hand works!  Chew on that, socialist planners!

But in our world, many resources are allocated to the production of bizarre luxury goods while billions go hungry.  Is this because “the people” want the former more than the latter?  Of course not.  No one wants the former more than the latter.  If you gave me the choice between food and my MacBook Air, I’d take the food, and so would you and Tim Cook and everyone else alive.

Why are resources misallocated in this way?  Because the starving have been priced out of food, while I have not been priced out of buying a MacBook Air, and the market only sees preferences in the form of the “what have people been priced out of” signal.

When people’s budgets are all the same (or similar), this signal results in production patterns that track people’s relative preferences about different goods.  When people’s budgets are wildly dissimilar, this does not occur.  The production patterns don’t even reflect rich people’s preferences, since they prefer essentials over luxuries just like everyone else.  (It satisfies rich people’s preferences, which is not the same thing as reflecting them.  Being rich means having the opportunity to buy things which have incredibly low, although still positive, marginal value to you.)

Does this mean we have to spread the wealth around at gunpoint?  Well, I don’t know.  We don’t need to do anything.  But the market cannot do its Adam Smithy magic if the wealth is very unevenly distributed.  Maybe you value not having a state more than you value the market doing its Adam Smithy magic!  But it is worth being clear that these values are in conflict.

argumate

you see this is why I don’t try and formalise my hunches: it’s so much work

mitigatedchaos

Ah, but dear owl-friend Argumate, if we rate those with zero money as having zero preferences, then all the math works out great!

Source: nostalgebraist the invisible fist shtpost
discoursedrome
marcusseldon

I think one big economic problem millennials face that is horribly under-discussed is that businesses just don’t really seem interesting in training people anymore, or at least not unless the person is in an unpaid/underpaid internship.

Like, in the ‘80s, my mom got a job as a programmer and was trained by the company. Prior to that, she had no experience with computers and hadn’t gone to college, and they trained her to program (granted, she wasn’t in a high level programming position, but even low-level programming jobs pay pretty well). Companies used to really invest in workers, and they don’t now. That’s unimaginable today. Companies now seem to expect you to get a four-year college degree that is directly applicable to the job, and at least a year or two of relevant internship experience, plus some self-learning on the side, to even hire for entry-level office work.

Of course, this new system makes younger workers much less competitive compared to older workers, and it means that any disadvantages you have (you have a mental illness, your parents aren’t supportive/wealthy enough to help you through an internship, you didn’t get a 4-year degree or got one at a lower-level institution,, etc.) multiply in how much they hinder one’s attempts to enter a given industry, because you have to do so much to even get your foot in the door.

discoursedrome

Yeah, this is one of a large variety of ways in which the private sector, running out of ways to become more competitive by generating value, has increasingly depended on pushing costs onto others. Even fiscal conservatives tend to be fans of “skills training” subsidies, so it’s easy for companies to just completely give up on training and entry-level recruitment and then argue that the government needs to save them from the skills gap, and universities need to better train students in whatever they need right now. Then a huge amount of money gets wasted training people for things that are useless by the time those people enter the workforce, but were in-demand three years earlier.

In general I think it’s really important to understand this pattern of cost-smuggling, because it’s probably the single most fundamental tactic used by modern firms to stay competitive. You also see it in, for instance, the tendency to outsource resume screening to third-party service providers, who boast about their proprietary algorithm but actually just discard any resume without appropriate keyword hits and the right degrees. Or just-in-time scheduling, or the tendency to offsource all capital costs onto employees/contractors except the ones absolutely necessary to maintain leverage, or firing people when they’re costing you money and then rehiring them when you need them again. There are simply far, far more opportunities to save money by tricking or forcing other people into paying than there are by actually doing things better, and in a competitive marketplace, you can’t afford to hold out for the latter type.

What’s funny is that it’s not even clear that these strategies do improve long-term profitability. The issue is that long-term profitability doesn’t matter; companies have to optimize for short-term profitability, and things that make them money over a period of many years in ways that aren’t obvious to shareholders or investors aren’t worth that much in the rat race.

mitigatedchaos

We may see an increase in relative performance by employee-owned and privately-owned companies for this reason.

Source: marcusseldon the invisible fist
drethelin
mitigatedchaos

@drethelin

It isn’t just government subsidies that are in effect when a company doesn’t pay enough to keep workers alive.

The company can also be indirectly subsidized by draining the social and other capital of families, relatives, kind strangers, and whoever keeps those employees alive.

This is “efficient,” not actually efficient.

The alternative is to openly embrace social darwinism, which also deprives society and the economy in general all future value of the worker based on what their feasible value is right now, which may cause a rather significant net loss.

( @collapsedsquid may know if someone has explicitly studied this )

Making it impossible to fire people isn’t a good idea, but letting companies free ride on society’s / the country’s generosity isn’t such a great idea, either.  

Now, you may say that direct wage subsidies have to come out of taxes, but those taxes likely aren’t going to come from the scarce poor-families-capital currently subsidizing Walmart, and it significantly reduces the competitive advantage of such behavior.  Additionally, with more jobs profitable for more workers, there is more competition between employers to quit being jerks to the working class, which is currently distorted by the massive power imbalance between the working class as individuals and corporations with their collective bargaining power.  It’s also less expensive than welfare since it stacks public funding with private funding, instead of running a straight loss, and if structured correctly, it still strongly incentivizes these workers to pursue higher-paying, more economically valuable work.

Or we could start billing Walmart for the billions of dollars in public assistance their workers receive, but that would be a much less efficient solution with similar effects to raising the wage floor.

drethelin

If walmart vanished, those workers would still be getting public assistance. They are purely making the situation better. If there was anyone around who would be paying those workers better, or enough to NOT need public assistance, they would be working there instead. This is a common progressive instinct: Making the perfect the enemy of the good. It’s far far better that walmart exists and pays the wages it does than if it didn’t. And the most important beneficiaries of Walmart’s low wages aren’t even Walmart’s profits: It’s everyone, primarily poor people, who shops there. 

drethelin

By subsidizing Walmart’s cheap goods and convenience (having a huge selection and being open 24 hours), the USG is actually helping out the poor people a lot!

mitigatedchaos

If you put a bomb in someone’s skull, you have a lot of leverage and can get them to do just about anything, up to the point that they are willing to die to refuse your demands.

And if they’ll merely be homeless?  Well that’s not quite as much leverage, but it’s still a lot of leverage.  Walmart can walk away with only a few less hours served, but the workers may not necessarily be able to.  This imbalance in the amount of skin in the game may mean that Walmart wages are artificially low, even without Medicare preventing their employees from dying of medical conditions.

In this case, I feel it would be better for the workers and their working conditions if we made the subsidies more explicit, so Walmart and everyone else could stop pretending they aren’t being effectively subsidized.  And while the effective hourly wages might not rise as much due to not generating that much value, the influx of competing job options into the marketplace would likely result in competition over working conditions, which are one of the things that makes life for the working class so unbearable.

Source: mitigatedchaos the invisible fist
theunitofcaring
theunitofcaring

The form of direct action against abusive employers that I personally find the most tempting (this doesn’t mean it’s a good idea or anything, just that I daydream about it):

Employees often don’t file legal complaints about wage fraud and illegal conditions because they can’t afford to lose the job because they’re living paycheck to paycheck. I expect that many people in this situation would quit their horrible job and file a legal complaint if they would be given like $1200 to tide them and their family over while they found a new job. 

So here’s what I’d be tempted to do: ask people online to tell you about a business that’s engaging in wage and hours violations/otherwise really shitty but still its employees’ best option. Find one with like 10-15 employees. Fundraise money within your activist group and online to get enough money for every single employee to walk away. 

Then the employees go to their boss and say ‘the next time you take half our tips even though you’re not legally allowed to take any/make us come in when we’re really sick/deduct damaged merchandise from our paychecks/etc, we all walk away. We have filed a wage claim in court. If you retaliate for that, we all walk away.’

And then, you know, next time the employer breaks the law, any employee who wants to follow through on the threat gets $1200 to support them once they’ve quit. And then you publicize the heck out of it, and scare other shitty employers, and hopefully the wage claim is successful and your employees get recompensed the money they were owed. And you open online applications for the next place.

You’d have to be very careful to go after places with real, documented, verified workplace conditions violations, because most of the benefit is in the publicity and the scaring other employers into shaping up. And you can’t scare people into shaping up if they don’t know exactly what they need to do (meet their legal obligations). You could only go after small places, because you need most of the employees on the same page and because fundraising larger sums of money would be harder. 

But with the right fundraising and PR team, I bet you could create conditions under which employers are way more scared to cheat their employees. 

mitigatedchaos

Because employees lack negotiating leverage, the government should have a network of secret labor law informants, such that no business can be entirely sure they won’t get smacked down hard for flagrant violations. Simultaneously, the labor laws could be simplified.

policy the invisible fist the iron hand

@drethelin

It isn’t just government subsidies that are in effect when a company doesn’t pay enough to keep workers alive.

The company can also be indirectly subsidized by draining the social and other capital of families, relatives, kind strangers, and whoever keeps those employees alive.

This is “efficient,” not actually efficient.

The alternative is to openly embrace social darwinism, which also deprives society and the economy in general all future value of the worker based on what their feasible value is right now, which may cause a rather significant net loss.

( @collapsedsquid may know if someone has explicitly studied this )

Making it impossible to fire people isn’t a good idea, but letting companies free ride on society’s / the country’s generosity isn’t such a great idea, either.  

Now, you may say that direct wage subsidies have to come out of taxes, but those taxes likely aren’t going to come from the scarce poor-families-capital currently subsidizing Walmart, and it significantly reduces the competitive advantage of such behavior.  Additionally, with more jobs profitable for more workers, there is more competition between employers to quit being jerks to the working class, which is currently distorted by the massive power imbalance between the working class as individuals and corporations with their collective bargaining power.  It’s also less expensive than welfare since it stacks public funding with private funding, instead of running a straight loss, and if structured correctly, it still strongly incentivizes these workers to pursue higher-paying, more economically valuable work.

Or we could start billing Walmart for the billions of dollars in public assistance their workers receive, but that would be a much less efficient solution with similar effects to raising the wage floor.

the invisible fist
drethelin
yveinthesky

Every time I read up on why Walmart failed in Germany again I am massively entertained.

I can recommend it to everyone. 

Google “Why Walmart failed in Germany”. 

Hours of entertainment. 

blackestsabbath

shieldfoss

Why walmart failed in Germany:

https://thetimchannel.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/w024.pdf

shieldfoss

My Lidl Entrepeneur: Capitalism is Magic.

The EURO-conversion was used by retailers to raise prices. Aldi, however, reacted with the biggest price reduction of its corporate history. As a result, it was able to double its profits.

Paragraph edited for clarity - the original is on page 17.

Imagine that - taking market share by improving service and prices.

EDIT: Mind you, some of Walmart’s failure is absolutely because the government has put bars on the free maket that made it illegal for them to succeed:

With organic growth close to being a mission impossible for hypermarket operators due to stringent* planning and zoning regulations

Soon faced with rapidly mounting losses, Wal-Mart’s management resorted to staff cuts and closures to reduce its above-average personnel costs. Due to strict worker protection regulations, however, making surplus workers redundant can be a complicated, lengthy and costly affair in Germany – a cumbersome fact of life for its German competitors, but, obviously, terra incognita for Wal-Mart Germany’s (mostly) American executives

* Stringent is explained elsewhere in the text and it is, indeed, stringent.

belvarine

Beautiful article. My favorite parts:

- The leading retail strategy in Germany is “hard discounting” which offers a very narrow selection of high quality products at “rock bottom” prices. Aldi rules at this and hard discount retailers control a third of the market. In the UK etc this accounts for less than a tenth of the market. This is the polar opposite of Walmart’s “sell literally everything” strategy.
- Germany has zoning laws that favor smaller buildings. This works in favor of hard discounters because they offer a narrow selection and minimalist shopping environment. Compare to Walmart’s “browse an entire warehouse and grocery store then eat at one of several restaurants” model.
- Germany has antitrust/fair trade laws that forbid merchants from permanently selling goods below cost. This is Walmart’s favorite strategy famously observed in the gallon-jar pickle campaign.
- Germany only allows retailers to be open for 80 hours per week, compared to 196 in the UK, 96 in the Netherlands, and 144 in France.
- Walmart refused to recognize the outcome of the collective wage negotiation process with their German unionized employees and were “completely surprised” when said unions promptly organized walkouts in 30 stores. They were probably surprised because of their millions of US employees, only 12 are known to be unionized. This gave Walmart a “union basher” rep in Germany where unions are influential and popular.
- Walmart tried to pull their “hire a ton of employees and give them shitty part time hours so we don’t have to give them full-time benefits” but worker protection laws prevented this and Walmart was forced to compete on product margins and services rather than recouping losses by shafting their employees. Aldi was able to match their prices cent for cent, but offered better service and more value.
- Walmart repeatedly defied German antitrust laws like “You must provide your balance sheet and annual profit/loss statement” and “You must provide a bottle/plastic refund system for products you sell.” None of the other leading German retailers had a problem sustaining growth and profit while complying with these laws.
- Germany put some dude from Arkansas in charge of the acquisition. He didn’t speak German. Anyone who’s spent time with Germans can imagine how well this probably went over.


So basically Walmart rolled up to Germany and tried to play its usual game of “buy out entire supply chains, sell products below cost until competitors are dry, then use their market reach to demand bulk orders from suppliers at near-zero margins, all the while keeping stores open 24/7 to maintain a huge pool of redundant part time workers at minimum wage with no benefits to reduce operating costs and further subsidize more supply chain buyouts” and the heavily unionized, aggressively antitrust, worker protection, high value low price German market laughed in their dumb weasel faces and sent them packing.

Meanwhile, Aldi, who has been commanding the German market while complying with all these regulations, has been expanding seamlessly into the US and has owned Trader Joe’s since 1979, which sells twice as much per square foot as Whole Foods.

This article is a beautiful demonstration that the only reason shitty companies like Walmart keep biting us in the ass in the US is because our leaders refuse to put them on a leash.

voxette-vk

Well, I agree with the general point that Walmart couldn’t succeed in Germany because Germany basically had regulations making Walmart illegal.

But I disagree with your normative evaluation of that outcome.

drethelin

Germany: Makes convenience and low prices illegal

You: HAHA WALMART BTFO I LOVE TO PAY MORE MONEY FOR SHIT

mitigatedchaos

Walmart is de facto subsidized by the US government as many of its employees are on various kinds of welfare.

So how about instead of all this bullshit we issue direct-to-employee wage subsidies to simultaneously improve conditions for the working poor and increase competition. It isn’t fair if only unethical companies that loot the commons and free-ride on the social consequences of their actions get this advantage.

Source: yveinthesky the invisible fist
ranma-official
obiternihili

“People are dying of starvation”

“Well if you dirty statists just let us sell rotten food there wouldn’t be a hunger issue”

shieldfoss

Government is just another word for the bleach we pour over donated food so the homeless can’t eat it together.

ranma-official

very interesting

anyway remember when in grapes of wrath they poured kerosene on oranges to not reduce prices as people starved

shieldfoss

Yes I do remember the part in Grapes of Wrath where the farmers followed the legally empowered Agricultural Adjustment Administration’s directives to destroy food.

“The Roosevelt Administration was tasked with decreasing agricultural surpluses,” to quote Wikipedia quoting Douglas.

ranma-official

Huh, it turns out that that act was forced into existence by large farmers and food processors, who financially benefit from people starving! All while these people horribly exploited their workers to the point of starvation and viciously rebelled against the “socialistic” resettlement program!

Turns out that these bastards love to see people die. Huh.

mitigatedchaos

It’s important to remember that the Market™ pays people to subvert public ownership of the State.

This demand originates within the market and then subverts any state not adequately designed to resist it.  Paring back the state doesn’t actually get rid of the demand, and may, depending on circumstances, make the problem worse.

Which is why we should design better states.

Source: obiternihili the invisible fist the iron hand
collapsedsquid
collapsedsquid:
“ Just saw this on Branko’s twitter and all I can think of is “What’s the economic growth of a million ‘steam slaves’ with no materials for them to process?“ Does someone need to explain the concept of “Necessary but not sufficient“...
collapsedsquid

Just saw this on Branko’s twitter and all I can think of is “What’s the economic growth of a million ‘steam slaves’ with no materials for them to process?“ Does someone need to explain the concept of “Necessary but not sufficient“ here?

Having those machines means you will absolutely need as much raw material as you can get, if that’s the bottleneck, it’s easy to see that more industrial capacity could increase the level of labor exploitation. 

One thing here he reaches right up to but does not realize is that colonies are useful precisely because they are so far away.  You can keep your pampered well-fed skilled artisans in Britain, and so when the labor uprising happens in Africa they’re not at risk or even bothered.  That’s in addition to the fact that having resources be distant makes the whole process very profitable and therefore gives capacity and desire for more intense investment

Also talks about the ”heydays of capitalist growth in the West in the period 1945–1973“ without commenting on the fact that it ended. I can easily argue that wasn’t actually stable and it was a weird period in multiple ways.

I feel I could be convinced that slavery/colonization/whatever wasn’t actually necessary for industrialization but people are so bad at arguing it.

mitigatedchaos

You see, I’m the other way around.  Ever since I read that “they found harder ways to work the slaves to get more cotton” was bullshit and actually much of the productivity growth was due to breeding better cotton, I have been even more suspicious of claims that slavery/colonization/etc was required as a class.

They seem less about a study of the matter, and more about saddling the West with an infinite moral debt that can never be repaid, and excusing the impact of culture on development.

politics the invisible fist