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See, that’s what the app is perfect for.

Sounds perfect Wahhhh, I don’t wanna
collapsedsquid
collapsedsquid

Noah Smith is doing his “you people on the left need to be re-conciliatory, join up with moderate conservatives like McMullin to fight Trumpism“ that’s continuing his “The US is turning into civil war spain“ idea.

And he’s presenting it like people on the left are too prideful to do it, which some are.  But the other problem with this he’s not addressing is that this plan could basically be “We’re about to be shipwrecked in the middle of the ocean, so what we need to do is to tie ourselves to the heaviest and fastest-sinking piece of the ship!“

whatevernatureis

Boring answer is that granting the premises there’s risks and benefits to either strategy, and while the risks and benefits for one strategy or the other might in principle be calculable, the noise of motivated reasoning means we won’t be able to tell which strategy is “right” ahead of time.

I’m largely in the camp that we should do what we can to defend liberal-democratic norms and make a coalition with anyone else who is also defending liberal-democratic norms, whatever else their views may be. Granted, that’s partly because there’s no real coherent agenda with broad support among the left, and we shouldn’t be picky about ideological purity when we don’t know what our ideology is.

(I mean, Bernie and Elizabeth Warren are very popular on the left, but their popularity is more about personality and symbolism than policy)

collapsedsquid

I think the agenda with broad support is social democracy.  That’s what the Bernie and Warren supporters want, that’s actually something that exists, and it’s a goal that can be worked towards.

And I’m not sure what level or type of support the left is expected to give.  Is the left supposed to agree with McMullin when he says the Real Problem is the size of the US deficit? That’s the problem here, what exactly does this “coalition“ entail? Who gets thrown under the bus?

The closest thing to an answer I could think of is the generic culture war “Tone down the PC“ thing.  But even leaving aside the morality and possible damage of that decision it’s tricky because it’s not something that can be given away, I don’t think it’s so much the law that pisses people off as the actions of people. It’s not available to give up.

mitigatedchaos

I think we could actually get some support for social democracy.  I don’t think it will be as pragmatic as I’d like, but a relatively coherent social democracy that is not indifferent to the conditions of WWC rural Americans could rally up some enthusiasm and take some of the pressure off of automation.

And yeah, social democracy exists, and unlike Communism, it doesn’t involve killing lots of people.

I’m not sure how well it would work when combined with Globalism, which seems to be a thing the Left really does not want to remove, which I want to see removed.  

On top of that, I recently had someone argue that all cultures are equal, despite my clearly explaining that FGM is cultural (not even religious), and them appearing to be opposed to FGM.  So I’m not sure how much pragmatism there is to be had.

politics trump social democracy the left globalism
bambamramfan

Anonymous asked:

So, the current president of the US and the political party that controls the government won, this year, on a platform that, in part, openly appealed to white nationalists. The only thing I have seen from the rationalistsphere about this fact is A) telling people they're overreacting and B) treating people like monsters because they don't condemn the punching of a prominent neo-nazi. Why is this? Why the commitment to pretending that the "left" in the US is the real danger?

bambamramfan answered:

A fair question. I agree with @raggedjackscarlet the other day that lots of anti-SJ types are underestimating the possibility of right wing dictatorship.

I think a lot of people are struggling with how to deal with Trump, and honestly no one has found a good way to do so yet. He’s like the zombie we’ve shot all our ammunition into, and keeps on coming. Finding out how to defeat him is a top priority.

But let’s not ignore how much of the world is a liberal order - ie, focused on rights like free speech and property and voting and privacy, rather than trying to merge all of society into one collective body under the Leader. Even if Trump isn’t a rights based liberal, he doesn’t run all of society. Paul Ryan is a libertarian, and most Senators can be fit under this rubric. The richest CEOs of the richest companies are good liberals (like Tim Cook.) The top bureaucrats at all agencies believe in this worldview, not to mention the media and academia.

So if you’re worried “liberals might hate me and wish me harm” vs “fascists might hate me and wish me harm” that former group still has a lot more power to do so. And if liberals promise to be kind to each other and protect each other, actually the fascists will find there isn’t much they can do to us.

I at least reject very much political programs that try to unite everyone around hating “one idiot.” Even the most dangerous idiot in the free world is still one dude. The question is the system that gets everyone to play along to his stupid antics.

  • Don’t read his twitter.
  • Don’t believe what his federal agencies say and who they accuse of crimes especially.
  • Don’t give him ratings.
  • Don’t turn in immigrants and Muslims.
  • Don’t accept his “us vs them” mentality.

…is how I fight Trump. Dodge the draft and evade taxes if it becomes necessary even.

I admit this doesn’t sound like the most effective plan ever. But in absence of a guaranteed way to defeat him, for the love of god, stop beating each up or other bystanders.

*****

Also you are not a monster if you want to punch a Nazi. It’s okay. These are pretty normal urges shared by many people. I hope you don’t do it, but I definitely don’t think you are a monster. Like, how would you even log onto to tumblr and submit an ask if you were? The monitor would melt and your claws would crush the keyboard. No you’re totally human.

mitigatedchaos

@anon The rationalsphere isn’t condemning people for not condemning the punch, that I’ve seen.  They’re condemning people that are celebrating it as a general principle.

@bambamramfan

I think a lot of people are struggling with how to deal with Trump, and honestly no one has found a good way to do so yet. He’s like the zombie we’ve shot all our ammunition into, and keeps on coming. Finding out how to defeat him is a top priority.

Social status competition and (yes, really) virtue signalling, emotional satisfaction, and other things caused all the ammunition to lose its teeth.

This is actually a side effect of unethical tactics.  Basically antibiotic resistance mutating as an effect of overuse of antibiotics.

Every politician against the Left was decried as “racist, sexist, homophobic, misogynistic”.  Every position on immigration other than open borders was described as “racist”.  Any criticism of Islam, which is not a very liberal religion and is tied into politics in ways that other foreign religions are not, was met with accusations of “racism”.  

What is the correct tactical response on the Right to these things?  To just flat out stop caring.  Having swamped the field of racism/sexism/etc accusations with noise (I outright ignore uncited accusations of sexism these days), so many people have stopped listening that you can put in actual racists and cover for it by accusing the accusations of being fake!  Because, to the typical viewer who doesn’t have time to research, often enough they actually are fake.

This is what Trump is.  He is the antibiotic resistant bacteria.  He is the strain that survived because people were busy applying antibiotics en masse to the common cold, which isn’t even caused by a bacteria in the first place.

I don’t know how to unbreak those tools, because I don’t know how to take them away from idiots and status-craving unethical people.  If I make a new signal for “no, this guy is actually racist, he doesn’t just want to enforce existing immigration laws”, it will be hijacked by these same politicals who will use it to lie for status, resources, and power.

It will also be used to attack me and people like me.

Locally, there are still people I trust with a sexism/racism/etc accusation, but that number is shrinking.

politics the left trump